THE GREATEST BATTLES WITH WORLD EFFECTS

[obe1zanobe]

I am looking for a description of the Worlds Greatest Battles.
These Battles should have some Sun TZU in them.
Please tell me in general why you think battle had these qualities

[BingFa]

Dude, why are you looking for whatever it is you think you are looking for?

And correct if I am wrong, but you are, like, 11 years old, right?

Every battle has, to use your phrase,"some Sun Tzu in them."

Your post makes it most obvious that you have neither read nor have any clue who Sun Tzu was or what he wrote.

Nice try kid but you fool no one here.

So might I suggest that you go watch Tele-Tubbies or go play with your Power Ranger men.

BingFa :cool:

[<Warpath>]

Originally posted by BingFa:
Dude, why are you looking for whatever it is you think you are looking for?

And correct if I am wrong, but you are, like, 11 years old, right?

Every battle has, to use your phrase,"some Sun Tzu in them."

Your post makes it most obvious that you have neither read nor have any clue who Sun Tzu was or what he wrote.

Nice try kid but you fool no one here.

So might I suggest that you go watch Tele-Tubbies or go play with your Power Ranger men.

BingFa :cool:

dont you think your being a little hard on him?

[Peter White]

Originally posted by <Warpath>:
dont you think your being a little hard on him?

He probably is.

It is certainly true that on the internet or netnews you will regularly see posts by school kids asking help for their homework. This one does looks a bit like such a post.

Most people do not mind helping someone with their homework or answering questions provided the poster shows willingness to do actual work themselves or at least can contribute something real to the discussion they are starting.

I would have been more diplomatic. But I suspect BingFa was correct in his assessment.

Even a novice who is genuine in their interest of military history could start the ball rolling on a discussion by asking a question like "I have been reading about Hannibal/Longstreet and I was wondering...what would Sun Tzu has said about Cannae/Gettysburgh?"

A naked agenda looks more like an attempt to pump people for information than a sincere attempt to start a discussion.

[Taylor]

One of the greatest battles in history, is the battle of Cannae.
Between the romans and carthaginians it showed the advantage of combined arms use as opposed to quantity in numbers of one particular weapon system.
Hannibal gave the romans a deployment they thought was weak.
Also, by having his back to a river, Varro thought he had them.
But given that the roman calvary was next to non-existant, their flanks were exposed.
Mobility thru calvary proved great.
Scipio Africanus learned this lesson and applied it to Hannibal later.
The deception, coupled with using the enemys arrogance resulted in 80,000 men dead.
One of the highest death tolls in any battle until the 19th century.
The deployment was as follows:

IIII
AAII IIAA Carthagianian Army
CC CC

C III III III C
III III III
III III III
III III III

The romans did not learn from alexander,
but they were more interested in infantry tactics with strategic control of resources.
This served them well until the Huns and goths came with their use of heavy cavalry.
But to have a Sun-Tzu view in this is difficult for it is a western way to fight.

Deception was looked down upon for men.
An indirect approach worked for Ceaser in Illerda.

Well, the desert campaigns of '41-'42 are fruitful. But the strategies of Sun-Tzu are probably served correctly if you read chinese texts dealing with chinese generals using his strategies.

[Odisseus Nobody]

Originally posted by obe1zanobe:
I am looking for a description of the Worlds Greatest Battles.
These Battles should have some Sun TZU in them.
Please tell me in general why you think battle had these qualities

Every battle is a great battles Oby, ;)

what do you mean when you say "greatest battles" ?

because Sun Tzu wrote about strategy ( and particulary about the more abstract and general part of strategy) every battle has "some Sun TZU " in it or should have it... :p


there are battles which influenced more the history of nations or continents...there are battles very interesting for the strategy used there are battles more relevant for thei political consequencies....

[sonshi]

The most impressive has to be the Battle of Gaugamela (http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/3764/artic/gaugamela.html).

National Geographic wrote, "The clash of arms at Gaugamela reverberates to this day. There Alexander displayed the military genius that was his greatest gift. Against heavy odds [around four to one] he routed the Persian army of Darius III in a battle still studied by strategists."

Alexander, the ultimate personification of bravery and intelligence, led at the front as always. A masterful military leader by all accounts. He also knew where his priorities were:

Darius, from his central position on his chariot, saw his left-wing crumble, with the cavalry there in full retreat. He also saw Alexander and his elite forces, cutting a passage through his left centre, heading directly towards him! As he had done at Issus, he turned tail and ran. Most of the centre, seeing his cowardice, lost faith and ran with him. Alexander pressed hard on the foe, as they tried to retreat, and the slaughtering began. From this point onwards, whatever else happened, the battle was effectively won.

However, for the left half of Alexander's army, under Parmenio, things did not appear to go so well. The rapid advance of the right, while the left was encircled, had caused a split to develop, in the centre of the Macedonian forces. There, some of the Indian and Persian cavalry broke through, but rather than turn back to strike at the Macedone's centre, they instead rode on to Alexander's camp, with the intent to loot!

On the far-left, the Macedonians were surrounded, with troops in front, to the side, and to the rear; the Persians here were unaware of Darius' flight. It was now that Alexander's reasoning for the second line of infantry became clear. They turned about, while the flank guard moved back, to create a 'box' formation, which faced the enemy on all sides.

Nonetheless, the Macedonians here were being pressed very hard, and thus Parmenio, when the situation appeared to be dire, dispatched messengers to Alexander with the request for aid.

The message reached Alexander, who was now behind the original Persian lines, just as he was about to begin his pursuit [of Darius].

The fate of his army's left, now that Darius and the centre had fled, was not of any strategic importance to Alexander. A golden opportunity was now before him, to pursue and capture the Persian leader, thus establishing a firm claim as 'Lord of Asia'. Final victory was his, for the taking...

Yet he wasted no time. Turning around, he headed at full-speed back towards the other side of the battlefield, where Parmenio's men appeared to be flagging. He fought his way, at a charge, through the retreating Persian units of the centre, including the Royal Guard, losing over sixty of his men as some of the enemy broke through.

It was, fatefully, an unneccesary manoeuvre. By the time that Alexander reached Parmenio, the Thessalian cavalry had mounted a counter-attack and the enemy forces there were also in retreat. But Alexander had shown, nonetheless, that he valued his friends and his men just as much, if not more than, his personal ambitions.

We can find few battles with such display of courage, loyalty, and cohesiveness.

[Sir H. Master]

A battle does not always have to do with fighting. It can be none violent.

But if you ARE talking about armies obe1zanobe, remember that a battle doesn't always win the war. So however great a battle was, in the end it was stupid useless bloodshed, because you lost the war. So the battle wasn't that great after all.

But if you fight a battle, however big or small, and this perticular battle wins you the war, its always THIS battle that is the greatets for your people.

Being a bit sentimental, I'd have to say D-Day was the greatest battle of all. That's because I'm european. And this costly battle on fortress europe was the end of the beginning to the 3rd Reich.
...If the allied would have lost this battle,.... I'd might be a nazi now and be speeking german.... pfff luckely I don't

But the most historical greatest battles, I think, you may find in Mongol history. Kublai Khan who build the biggest empire ever. He probably knew the Sun-Tzu text, because he was a chinese educated Mongol. He understood that, unlike his grandfather Ghenghis, crushing and killing all and everything isn't always the answer.

{...haha, but personaly I like Ghenghis' way better, lotsa blood, lotsa dead, lotsa pillaging...}

GreetZ,
Sir H. Master. :)