View Full Version : 01.010 A general who listens to my calculations...
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
"A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious"
Experience over Calculations will make a general (or business leader) victorious. It's the same reason you can not pick up a book on "project management" and be a project manager. A sound basis of theory or 'calculation' is essential, but does not stand alone without growth through experience
Sun Tzu's knowledge on matters martial, are obvious enough.
Phrase 01.010 reminds me about just how brilliant Sun Tzu knew human beings and human nature.
I think a large part of Sun Tzu's self-confidence stemmed from the fact that he knew himself. This is a key factor in why he was able to write such a timeless masterpiece on human conflict/human relations.
BingFa
markb287
05-24-02, 02:00 PM
Sun-tzu grew up around war and even his father was a very high military official, so he would therefore know the advantages and disadvantages of warfare. In this way, he saw that the laws and philosophy of his time and his people all abided by the Way and the Law. The ground and heaven were just factors in certain victory. And the general was the person to achieve it.
markb287
09-20-02, 08:36 AM
"A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him."-Sun-tzu.
It is not conceit of Sun-tzu to say such a thing; it is only surety. Surety in his teachings. And they are logical, although they can be applied to a higher level of competition. Although there maybe other factors of study, these factors are definitely essential and must be said in order for the general to win.
MonteChristo
10-14-02, 11:21 AM
Commanders/managers are the most influential people in the organizations. Quite a lot of things can be predicted just by looking at them and at the way they conduct their duties. If the people at the top will apply the rules described in Sun Tzu then all people around them will apply them as well.
In such a case work/future/operations will be properly planned. Activities will be coordinated and no resources will be lacking. Thus group of people will be successful.
However if the general is not applying the rules the army will be badly organized and chances of success will be small. For the above reasons only good generals/managers should be left at their positions and bad ones should be dismissed. Too many things depend on them.
a general must use the doctrine of Sun Tzu not only listen to it. Some may fake to understand it and proceed afterwards without using it. Some generals may use Sun Tzu principles without being aware of them in which case, they should listen to his "calculations" and complete their insight in warfare.
Sun Tzu states that the best general is the one who obtains victory, and knows why he obtained the victory, thus his model may serve to bring generals in that state. Learn and practice!
I think that SunTzu was trying to convey in the strongest possible terms that he knew what he was talking about, and that anybody who ignored his words of wisdom, would surely end up in the gutter. He was also trying to point out that if a supreme commander knew nothing about warfare, then he was doomed to a bloody failure.
Gonzo
Cardinal999
11-15-02, 01:33 PM
* Always employ professionals who understands a conflict is serious matter;
* They must completely be aware of the Sun Tzu's type of principles of warfare; and
* They emphasize his principles 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week,
through actions not words.
jebusan
01-10-03, 06:35 AM
i think this is about obaying orders regardles of a generals own perception. If a general does not comply with the orders he is given,and chooses to take his own course of action , this will jepourdise the whole strategy, within the battle all separate generals and platoons must be sincronized they must obey orders regardless because they are mearly a small part of a bigger strategy, one deviation from this will jepourdise the whole,and all will be defeated and killed through the incompetence of one general. knowledge is power but the footsoldiers must not have this knowledg for they are closest to the enemy, i think we call it beurocracy
IT's worth looking at the Danma translation (http://academic.bowdoin.edu/suntzu/content.cmhtml?chapter=01§ion=14) on this. The only thing I'd add is that we shouldn't see "my calculations" as Sun Wu (assuming he existed) arrogantly asserting the superiority of his methods ... the "my" in these words should be read as referring to the Sunzi in itself, not as the words of Sun Wu or the unknown editors.
Sr_Tokes_Alot
01-24-03, 05:49 AM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him. This is, perhaps, the only part of the book directed towards the leaders of nations and not the leaders of armies.
This statement points out that the information contained in the AoW will make the difference between victory and defeat. This may be a literary element inserted to “hook” the reader. Knowing that the information contained in the pages that follow will be the difference between winning and loosing makes me want to read on. After all, who wants to be a looser?
On that note, what army wants to loose? If the leader of an army does not use the basic principals of strategy, he should be removed. I would also ask; who among you would FOLLOW a general that did not make use of strategic principals? Following such a leader would be like marching off to die.
Toker :smk2:
Lonestar
01-25-03, 04:45 PM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
Arrogance - The seed of defeat.
If a general is not willing to learn, and in this case, follow the Sun Tzu, he is arrogant and doomed for defeat. Even the Bible states, "Take heed when you stand lest you fall". Because the Sun Tzu is considered to be a compilation of the greatest warrior wisdom of the time, then it is incredibly un-wise and highly arrogant to ignore this wealth of information. As an insight into human psychology, the Sun Tzu plainly advises that the arrogant general be "removed"; he is reckless, unwise and unwilling to consider wisdom outside his own perception.
Humbly,
:bow:
Lonestar
A general who is not competent enough to use these obvious victorious calculations simply remove him, he is danger in the command. These strategies are abviously effective, and what good is a general who does no use effective calculations.
Since we are here only to win, why would anyone keep a losing general? So before committing to something as crucial as war, would it not make sense to know your general before handing him your nations well being?
HALBLEU
03-25-03, 09:15 AM
The Supreme Strategist-General always follow Sun Tzu advice of preliminary assessments of the enemy before the thought of waging war and developing a offensive plan.
SunZulu
03-26-03, 10:58 AM
Sun Tzu said, "A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him."
Answer the questions who, what, where, when, why and how.
Analyze the past, present, and future context of the situation.
Use your wisdom and your imagination to see the situation from different perspectives.
Know yourself and know how your opposition perceives you.
Think before you act.
Originally posted by sonshi
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
Stick to the tried and true methods trying new things that are untested or poorly planned will result in loss of men and your men's respect. This book is your bible don't question it, follow it's example and you will be victorious.
nightwolf
05-19-03, 04:11 AM
"A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him. "
Sunzi warns the rulers to accurately select their generals, because a bad general will guide his country to desctruction and defeat. The army leadership must be of the highest quality: better a weak army guided by a clever and skilled general than a powerful army led by an incompetent general who can't use his troops efficiently.
Here SUn-Tzu shows his supreme confidence (almost bordering on arrogance) in his principles. Having given his first set of instructions Sun-Tzu now gives a warning to follow them. This can also be a warning to listen to the rest of what Sun-Tzu says.
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him
Pretty much if you do what he says you'll win. Keep anyone who follows Sun-Tzu's teachings.
; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
The reverse of the previous line, probably used for emphasis, either that or to drill it into the heads of those who didn't get it the first time. If they ignore what Sun-Tzu has said you'll lose. Repkace anybody who ignores what Sun-Tzu said.
"If a general follows my (methods for) estimation and you employ him, he will certainly be victorious and should be retained. If a general does not follow my (methods for) estimation and you employ him, he will certainly be defeated, so dismiss him.
On the surface this statement is a warning. A warning from Sun Tzu that his methods are complete and all encompassing. If the ruler hirers generals which are not as thorough in their methods as Sun Tzu they will no doubt suffer defeat.
Hidden within this message is confidence, by making such a statement Sun Tzu exemplifies confidence. This bold message assures the ruler of Sun Tzu’s ability as a strategist. This statement assures the ruler that there is no doubt that with Sun Tzu’s methods success in any campaign will be inevitable.
You may ask why so bold, why so vain. Is not humility a more honorable trait in Ancient China? Yes, but remember we are talking of war, the lives of a nation lie in the decisions made from the ranks of his kind, and humility will not win battles for a nation.
Employ Generals that will complete your wishes. Reward success, punish failure and I would add... Create an enviroment where generals can learn from errors and become strong again.
Sincerely,
Pawn11
I've got the chess angle: Listen to Siegbert Tarrasch and you'll win. Don't listen, and you'll lose. Oh, no, wait. Listen to Aron Nimzovich and you'll win, listen to Tarrasch you'll lose. No one has all the answers, not even Tzu. His methods work but they aren't necessarily always the best. We are taught add from right to left because it works (and easy to teach) , but it is probably better to add from left to right. "Uncritical rejection of all theory because it is wrong on occasion is foolish and harmful; intelligent criticism of standard material, no matter how long it has been accepted, is sensible and wholesome." - Reuben Fine
This paragraph can be interpreted in the context of today's principle of team work.That relationship is the best where two people complement each other & together they make a whole.
Its a known fact that no person however perfect can have all the capabilities required for a perfect victory.Thus, every king needs a capable general who should be well informed & sensible enough to sense what the king can't because a position brings with it some limitations specially restricts the king's manouverability.
Thus, a king should appoint a general who is equipped to wage all the tactics on behalf of the king.Also, just like a CEO is bothered more about the new direction that his company should take rather than the day to day affairs which are taken care of by his subordinates BECAUSE the king should think big because it is his vision which takes the company AHEAD but in order to do this he must be supported by able generals.
Also there are certain things that the king can't do because he cannot go beyond a level dictated by his position to do such things he needs an able general & the ablest general can be who knows all that Sun Tzu says.,the tried & tested rules of warfare.
Otsoga, Prerna, keen insights both. Thank you.
Oh, and welcome to sonshi.com.:)
BingFa:cool:
Tri-ring
12-09-03, 12:53 AM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him;
a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
Well if Sun-Tzu can't sell his theory with this kind of strong sales statement, what could?
Just kidding, as I have stated many times Chinese are shrewd realists. All of Sun-Tzu's teachings are about taking account the morale of the troops, the weather, the terrain, and logistics for supply. There are no room for "Devine interventions" and any generals believing otherwise should be removed as Sun-Tzu points out.
Bushranger
02-29-04, 02:22 AM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
Keeping on ...
The calculations referred to here are not the specific measurements mentioned in the preceding passage, rather they are the Method by which applications of the Principle of calcaluation are generated.
Thus the General who examines what is before him with the calculating eye, and then applies his knowledge to what is before him, is valuable to a ruler and should be kept.
The converse is also true, viz, the General who does not calculate, or who does not apply the synthesised knowledge produced by such calculation, will be a hinderance and should be removed.
The ruler here must perform his own calculation, and act upon it, if the armed strength of his nation is to remain in good hands.
waterbearer
03-29-04, 05:10 AM
Sun Tzu: A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
___________________
A wise ruler recognizes in his key leaders those in whom wisdom resides. The power imparted by understanding and use of Sun Tzu's calculations is so self-evident as to demand the removal of any leader who would fail to recognize their innate value and follow the path they illuminate.
Truthseeker
05-12-04, 11:02 AM
Any successful leader must surround himself with those that understand these rules of competitive conduct. Everyone must be a united front, gleaning insight from the prinicples the leader has established. ST makes clear that those who refuse to perform these comparisons are doomed to fail.
Han Jian
06-20-04, 02:43 PM
Indeed, no Martial texts compare to the art of war. A general who does not directly follow Sun Tzu's principles or has not read them and still does not apply them can only be a danger to the state and must be dissmissed from office.
pol0311
06-21-04, 01:20 AM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
2, 500 years speaks for itself. Sun Tzu's the Art of War has been used by many who have been successful, whether it be in business or human conflcit. The principles in the text are to be followed, with flexibility in mind. Flexibility to adjust to the circumstances that present themselves. This is what impresses me most about Sun Tzu, his understanding of humans and human conflict. Study and follow his teachings and you will WIN!
The warrior realizes the truth in these eeirie words. He knows that he must ponder what is said in the art of war in order to be successful.
This seems to be a guarantee of sorts that the factors listed for examination have stood the test of experience. If the advice is followed, chances of success will be greatly increased. If ignored, results will suffer.
Tao-Tzu Neix
07-21-04, 06:01 PM
He who uses the five fundamentals will always have victory from Master Sun's writing. He who does not use the five will not understand the Art of War to its fullest.
Tao-Tzu Neix
FlamingCorndogs
11-21-04, 04:00 AM
You gotta know when to hold 'em,
Know when to fold them;
Know when to walk away
And know when to run.
This seems to urge the head of state to analyize the general, and to judge him without mercy.
If the general follows the head of state's commands and can keep to a budget but his soldiers loathe him, scrag him before they frag him. If his soldiers would follow him to hell but he acts like a law unto himself, remove him before his troops cross the Rubicon (or the Yalu). If he is a hot-dogger, taking supplies that his superiors have set aside for another unit, slap him down even if his flashy advances/victories evoke popular adulation back home.
They say the stud is half the herd. Similarly, the General is indicated to be as important as Heaven and Earth combined. The head of state can't order heaven and earth, and can only indirectly affect each of the other factors, but the head of state has absolute control over one factor: the general. The head of state who fails to choose wisely in this respect courts destruction.
erick@autocom.c
11-23-04, 02:15 PM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him
Have you heard this: "The chief doesn't need to know how to do things. But he must know how to fire who doesn't."
It's sad, but for me have the same meaning.
anjuanzan
12-09-04, 01:30 PM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him;
Where is the question.
Trinity
12-11-04, 09:49 AM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
Many people in power today are fine managers but they are not leaders.
mikeray
01-17-05, 08:15 PM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
Here Sun Tzu is practicing what he preaches: strict discipline, rewards and punishments, as well as pointing out what is all important in these affairs: victory.
It is interesting that he refers here to /calculations/ and not principles. This suggests that he means literally he is in the Temple, he has the intelligence from the spy-network, he is making calculations, and then there is the question of which general to entrust to execute these calculations?
The general here, then, is a semi-autonomous agent who once dispatched is hard to control. In the era of modern warfare the semi-autonomous field officer might be a thing of the past.
In covert operations, or low-tech operations, e.g. Bin Laden's control of his forces which according to news reports using hand-couriers, this might still be in play.
At first this statement seems arrogant. However, when reviewing the method of calculation Tzu has laid out, it becomes apparent that any general not taking in to account all of the five factors would be inviting uncertainty into his decision.
Without this careful calculation a general is needlessly putting their troops in harms way. Thus the general looses wisdom, credibility, discipline, and benevolence in the process. Following this the general is no longer fit for command.
Kansuke
02-15-05, 11:03 PM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
Logic reigns supreme on a battlefield, and logic reigns supreme in the planning room. Sun Tzu knows that - The Art of War is movement given reason; do not attack if it makes no sense, to not lose purpose and become vulnerable.
Any general who doesn't realize that the inherent logic in thoughtful action is the key to success will fail you; cast him aside.
Shigen Takeda
04-28-05, 01:06 AM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him.
It means that this general is willing to throw away his ego, throw away his pride to listen to someone else theory.
This general is bright and smart enough to know the keys in wining the battle has something to do with the Art of War.
This general is also willingly to lower himself to listen and try the tactics and calculation sun tzu give.
Thus with such a general. It is very wise to keep him., Unwise to kick him.
He knows his mistake and knows the fault in losing the battle is not with the theory of the Art of war but with himself.
Therefore, if he is able to throw away his pride and ego,
He is wise and knows that his greatest enemies is himself.
Thus.
Winning over hundreds battle is still not enough.
He who wins over himself is greater than any conquerer.
a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
This is a general who refuse to listen.
He will not admit his mistake, his mind is narrow and he do not understand himself.
Thus,
"No matter how much you have learned and how much you know, if you don't know yourself, you don't know anything . Indeed if you don't know yourself, you cannot know anything else.
People who don't know themselves criticize others from the point of their own ignorant selves. They consider whatever agrees with them to be good and hate whatever doesn't goes their way. They become irritated about everything, causing them to suffer by themselves, bothering themselves solely becasue of their own prejudices."
-Suzuki Shosan
GanNing
05-02-05, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by ki
"A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious"
Experience over Calculations will make a general (or business leader) victorious. It's the same reason you can not pick up a book on "project management" and be a project manager. A sound basis of theory or 'calculation' is essential, but does not stand alone without growth through experience
That's not quite true. For example, in business, someone might do a calculation about risks involved etc. They will decide to go through or not go through with it based on their past experience. However, the calculations themselves, when done properly, will always show the correct risk involved. The same is true for Sun Tzu's calculations on who will win.
Calculations are things like 2 + 2, it requires no experience, just the knowledge that 2 + 2 = 4. There's no way to get better at it through experience, except perhaps to do it faster.
Shigen Takeda
05-07-05, 03:53 PM
THAT is under calculation
Which ruler has the Way,
which general has the ability,
which has gained Heaven and Ground,
which carried out Law and commands,
which army is strong,
which officers and soldiers are trained,
which reward and punish clearly,
by means of these, I know victory and defeat!
Be it that if there are any experience in your man or not, your result from the calculation will varies.
At the same time, by knowing that your man has the experience is not enough.
Under chapter 10.
If the general is kind to the troops, but cannot use them, or if the general loves the troops, but cannot command them, or if the general does not discipline the troops, but cannot establish order, the troops are like spoiled children and are useless.
The 6 danger
If the forces are equal, and one attacks ten, this is called flight.
If the troops are strong but the officers weak, this is called insubordination.
If the officers are strong but the troops weak, this is called deterioration. ?
If the officers are angry and insubordinate, doing battle with the enemy under anger and insubordination, and the general does not know their abilities, this is called collapse. ?
If the general is weak and not disciplined, his instructions not clear, the officers and troops lack discipline and their formation in disarray, this is called chaos
If the general cannot calculate his enemy, and uses a small number against a large number, his weak attacking the strong, and has no selected vanguard, this is called setback.
To calculate the enemy, create conditions leading to victory, calculating the dangers and distances.
Thus,
Experience alone is not enough to win the battle
Know yourself, know your enemy, know their abilities, know the terrian, know the situation, know the climate, know everything that is concerned and know every minor details that cannot be see by the eye or hear by the ear. In this way, your calulation will be complete and the chance that the plane will backfire will greatly reduced.
It's said that sometimes, when translating from one language to another, the true meaning is lost. This occurs when the two languages have words that mean roughly the same thing, but not the exact same thing, and are selected because they're the closest to the original word.
This passage makes me wonder if that has happened here. How much I agree with it hinges on how exactly we're defining "victorious." In English this usually means that we've defeated our enemy. If we are to take that meaning as what Sun Tzu meant, I think this passage is not quite true.
If you've read my comments on the other passages in this chapter, you'll see that I think that, in the course of doing preliminary calculations, you'll sometimes find that it would be disadvantageous to engage the enemy at the time. When this happens, one ought to try to avoid a fight which would lead to an inevitable loss. This is a good thing, since lives and resources won't be thrown away needlessly, but non-engagement is not what I typically think of when I think of "victory."
On the other hand, if we consider the preservation of lives and resources, as well as avoiding defeat, victorious, then I do agree with this passage. If you carefully probe your opponent and perform an in-depth comparison of your respective strengths and weaknesses, you're far less likely to get yourself into a situation where you'll probably be beaten.
So, I do agree that by following his method of calculations one will avoid perilous situations. I do not agree that calculations alone will always allow you overcome your opponent (although the knowledge of strong and weak points you discern will let you make wiser decisions in the course of conflict which <i>might</i> carry the day). It's all in what you consider "victorious." But anyone who doesn't perform these calculations at all must not be trusted with serious situations either way.
"A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not
listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be
defeated, remove him."
If only! In the age of connections and behind-the-scenes deals, it seems that competence and strategy may often be overlooked in favor of other factors that are not nearly as important.
This also applies in business, in relationships and in many other situations... For example, if a manager has a lot of experience and other good qualities, but does not follow basic principles, their value may need to be re-assessed. And in friendships and relationships--this may be a bit of a stretch here--many people stay out of fear even when the other party does not have the Way, or pick the wrong person for the wrong task. In these situations, the criteria may be different, but needing to assess it honestly and make critical decisions based on the information is not only smart, it is *necessary,* for success.
Sun Tzu knew his subject so well and he knew that he knew it. This gave him the confidence to make this kind of pronouncement. If your general follows your rules, keep him. If your general doesn't and won't follow your rules, get rid of him. A leader who has proven himself and has the five characteristics of greatness which Sun Tzu outlined in 1.005 has the right to remove a subordinate who doesn't follow orders. To keep a general who is not in line with the leader will bring defeat to the whole army and nation. You can't have dissent (fifth column) in the ranks if you are to succeed.
And notice that he is issuing commands. "Keep him", "Remove him". This proves the importance of the matter. He doesn't say "You should remove him", he says "remove him".
Originally posted by MonteChristo
Commanders/managers are the most influential people in the organizations. Quite a lot of things can be predicted just by looking at them and at the way they conduct their duties. If the people at the top will apply the rules described in Sun Tzu then all people around them will apply them as well.
I agree with MonteChristo. I think the victory of an organization lies in the commanders/managers. If the commanders/managers practised the advice of Sun Tzu, victory will surely gain from them.
I would just like to have a concrete example the CEO MR. Tancaktiong of Jollibee. He was given the CEO of the year award in the previous years. As I can see his business, his fastfood brand is the icon of fastfood here in the Philippines. How did he beat MacDonalds? By following the principles of Sun Tzu. As i browsed in the articles here, I have found such one on how that CEO made it.
First, he considers the WAY...
The coming of MacDonalds to the Philippines in inevitable. He must make something so that his brand name will survive. Thus, their survival in the market was passed among his co-workers. And out of their strong upholding of survival, they not just only survive, but survive to promote the brand name for more than twenty years thus making it an icon and beating Mc Donalds and other fast food brand
Ground...
He believes that the majority of the market is Class C and children. To better apply this, he makes the prices markettable and make all the products appealing to the children.
Heaven...
His action is just timely as MacDonalds invade the Philippines.
General...
Being the general, I could see how successful he is. If not, his brand name might not be on earth up to now.
Law and Discipline.
Just like MacDonalds, Jollibee restaurants follows the same standard on all restaurant thus without any prejudice, they are all just the same restaurant when you will visit to them. Adhering to this standard, I could see that the brand name is so successful in its survival to the topmost in rank among the companies in the philippines.
I think the insights that I gain with Jollibee is that a general must set his foot forward to make march into its victory.
This is just a complicated way of warning people about ego trips. Just because you outrank another does not mean that their thoughts can not be helpful. Even if thoughts are completely inexplicable and idiotic, they can make one think of things they hadn't thought of yet.
macjavelin
02-10-06, 03:21 PM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
Tsun Tzu knows that he advocates rational principles tested by experience. Several times he refers to actual battles he has won based on these principles. He argues from a position of superior knowledge, just as he led the armies. Arguing his knowledge is absurd, because it defies reality. He is like Aristotle, who believed all matters and phenomena to be penetratable by reason and intellect.
The tedious arguments of those who refuse to learn, or learn and refuse to make use of the teachings, are a threat to a military apparatus. He should be removed, since he allows for irrationality, error and discord.
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
The simple analysis is keep people who know their job and dismiss those who don't. Notice though, "A general who listens to my calculations,.." Beware the arrogant general who thinks he has all the answers. A person who is so sure that he knows the way he neglects calculations and listening to his advisors is dangerous.
Look at the First Gulf War. Hussein was sure of himself. He thought that bravado and the will to win was enough. As it turns out the Iraqi preparation was completely lacking. Hussein thought his troops, especially the Republican Guard, where well equipped and motivated. As it turned out Hussein had not made any calculations. If he had, he would have realised that Iraqi equipment was no match for the U.N. Iraqi doctrine was not up to the task of defending against the U.N. And his troops did not have the will to fight and were nowhere near as well trained or proffessional as the U.N. troops. Had Hussein made the calculations Sun Tzu advises he would have avoided the conflict.
Another good example is Hitler in WWII. Hitler had a habit of dismissing people, such as Guderian, who disagreed with him but had made the calculations and had accurate analysis. However, their analysis often said, "We cannot win this war from our current position. Come to peace on the most favourable terms now because the alternative is destruction of the Third Reich." Hitler was not interested in the truth. He wanted only to be given analysis that agreed with his preconceptions. And this cost him dearly.
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
Sun Tzu stands by his ideas, which amount to uncommon common sense. The general who really knows the afore-mentioned five factors and their importance will take heed when his army's strengths and weaknesses in these areas are assessed relative to the enemy's, adjusting his plans accordingly. He may, indeed, seek to avoid an engagement when the comparison proves unfavorable--running away, as it were, to fight again another day once he has been able to strengthen his hand. This in itself constitutes a kind of victory in preparation for greater successes. Everything depends on staying alive to stay in the game.
Quite easy to interpret. Someone who takes to task these stratigies will be successful and prosper, those who do not will fail and must be removed for the good of the state.
bobby guerra
09-04-06, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by sonshi
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
Sun Tzu's confidence in his Art of War is extraordinary, coming only from a person who had seen much and done much -- and knew the consequences when things were done right and when they were done wrong. His principles are not merely suggestions; they are...
Come study Sun Tzu's Art of War with us. More details (http://www.sonshi.com/daily.html). war is not about emotion not about passion or wishfull thinking it is about the rules understand them follow them employ them ,those who perpetuate the way will be perpetuated by the way.
Shaun Halligan
09-16-06, 08:19 PM
As Giles point out in his translation, the passage reminds us why Sun Tzu wrote the art of war. He way pushing the quality of his work (and rightly so!) to gain appointment as general for the king of wei.
It is an excellent way to gain the readers attension also!
More than this though, Sun Tzu is absolutely correct. History is littered with the failure of generals who dont follow even the basic principals of the AOW, one of the more recent articals on this website, shows us how the US are guility of so many blunders in IRAQ. Dont get me wrong, Saddam had to go, but I belive if instructed in the modern world, Sun Tzu would have done a superior job!
whitebelt
09-26-06, 10:18 AM
When Sun Tzu states that every general has heard these 5 factors, I wonder if he was simply restating something that was already well known at the time. Just a thought. Even if it was re-stating common wisdom, he is making them the foundation of being a general. One of the things that I have found so intriguing about this document is the use of things that I always considered "folksy wisdom". I'm amazed at how often my father taught me taoist ideas without know that taoism even existed. I digress.
If you are a general - and you are if you realize it or not - you must be aware of these factors. If you aren't, you will only occasionally be victorious - by shear dumb luck - in your conflicts and you can guarantee that you will never escape unscathed. These first few verses are so important. I've read them so often yet I still seem to struggle.
wiredbalinese
12-26-06, 10:58 AM
"A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him;
a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him."
At first, reading these lines, I was surprised by how bold and absolute Tzu's ideas are but when I think a bit about it, his suggestions are sound and decisive.
His suggestions made on previous lines gives a good outlook on the art of collecting needed data. A general that is capable of acting out Tzu's suggestions is surely wise.
On the other hand, one that sees Tzu's suggestions but ignores it, is one that can not see the reason of which is so evident. Someone who only uses his suggestions half-way or not at all, will surely miss something that might become the determining element in warfare.
Tzu covers the calculation in an overall, not too detailed, manner which makes for a good outline to follow. Someone who avoids his methods will no doubt find flaws.
Originally posted by sonshi
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
There is a reason this book has been around for centuries. The man who wrote it had a lot of experience in what worked and what didn't work when it comes to warfare. So the generals of the future should heed his word and save themselves many years of slow learning for it could be their ruin.
anarchyboy
05-07-07, 02:02 AM
"A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him "
This passage addresses the need to heed to wise council. Something that has been addressed in both the Bible and the Qur'an. Those who are open to and not offended by critisim. Will emerge victorous. It's a matter of respect and trust in the leadership.
Realist
08-10-07, 04:18 AM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
Is this quote the conceit of Sun Tzu? Not at all. Sun Tzu is not implicitly quoting of his superiority, but refers to all rulers. By "me", Sun Tzu refers to the reader - as if the reader is saying it to him or herself and reciting it in his or her mind. Sun Tzu reminds the sagely ruler to choose their subordinates wisely. A general must be loyal to his or her cause; the general must obey even the most seemingly proposterous of orders - the leader must be wise; his/her judgement correct. The general must be loyal, and have trust in their leader. If the general is neither, they could put your strategy, victory, your entire army, at peril. If this is the case, remove him. (Notice that Sun Tzu says "remove", not execute. Remove him in the way that is best appropriate.)
Vesting
08-22-07, 05:38 AM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
This section can be interpretated as a warning against an incompetent leadership, which may do more harm than good -- even if the army itself is very strong. The advice is to keep a general who is victorious and who is following the given set of five maxims, but get rid of those who fail to do so.
A victorious general will boots the morale in the whole army, which in its turn will shift the power balance to your advantage (by making the enemy even more afraid).
Now. Thsi makes you question how to define 'victorious' acts in case if the general decided it was wise not to engage into a battle, given the fact that the highest maxim of Sun Tzu is winning without fighting. Whether or not the battlefield has been entered can therefore not been seen as heroic.
Hephaestus
02-02-08, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by sonshi
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
Traditionally, the chain of command has been considered a sacred thing within a nation's army. The superior officer is always right until proven wrong, and the subordinate is always wrong until proven right. This alludes to those officers who have the wisdom and courage to listen to the ideas of his subordinates, regardless of their experience or lack thereof. Everybody has something that they can contribute, some sort of insight into a complex situation, and chain of command or no, it is foolish not to listen to an idea simply because of who it comes from. The soldiers of today are either the officers of tomorrow, or the dead of tomorrow, so what do they have to lose?
As for Sun Tzu's diction used within this passage, he carefully chooses the word remove, as opposed to execute, banish, etc. Removal from a post has many possible actions, and whether to execute, transfer or relieve him is up to the situation. You must choose carefully that which you shall do, as any wrong decisions could cause anything from discontent and low moral within your ranks to a riot if the soldiers were faithful to that officer. (Granted the latter is highly unlikely if the officer was unwilling to listen to his soldiers and/or superiors)
Bubishi
02-03-08, 04:43 PM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
As a leader you must assess all your generals in the same manner that you assess your enemies.
This rule works both way. So you will know the true value of your generals in this way.
Kouga Gennosuke
05-07-08, 07:24 PM
You have the information and everyone under you should flow otherwise they do move towards your goal. Remove them.
Theophilite
05-10-08, 06:38 AM
AoW 1:10
And the Lamb asked the Lion "So after redeeming Man, what must they know to begin deserving the free gift of redemption?"
And the Lion responded "That is easy, tell them: A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him;
a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him."
Lamb: "But who is this general you speak of."
Lion: "The inner qualities that promote everything that pleases me they must keep, because those will lead to victory over sin. But for those who still do not listen to me will be defeated by sin, even though they are redeemed from that sin."
Lamb: "And what pleases you father?"
Lion: "Love and Kindness. Taking care of orphans and widows. Caring for the sick. Treating others like you would like to be treated. Living a life for others and not for oneself. Giving credit to where it is due. Treating all as if they were your own children, including those who hate, persecute, and revile you. And putting nothing before these qualities, because these qualities are what makes a man worthy of salvation."
Lamb: "And for those who do not follow these ways?"
Lion: "We will give them salvation anyway, for we will treat them as if they were all our own children, even if they choose to hate, persecute, and revile us."
Originally posted by sonshi
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him. Simply choose your people well. It sounds like Sun Tzu wasn't a micro-manager but insisted in having competent commanders. Choose the right people, train them, and trust them to do their job. George Bush Sr was good at this during the First Gulf War. He recieved a mandate. Gave a job to his people - who had been chosen and well trained. Then got the hell out of the way and let them do their job.
Originally posted by Duncan
Simply choose your people well. It sounds like Sun Tzu wasn't a micro-manager but insisted in having competent commanders. Choose the right people, train them, and trust them to do their job. George Bush Sr was good at this during the First Gulf War. He recieved a mandate. Gave a job to his people - who had been chosen and well trained. Then got the hell out of the way and let them do their job.
You have to combine the development of tactical, either military or business, are part of organizational development, so I would say that organizational behavior is the basis for the development of tactics.
你還要結合戰術的發展，軍隊或者是企業也好，都是組織學的一部分，所以我會說，組織行為學是開發戰術的基礎。
Originally posted by sonshi
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him. Warfare requires a team effort but Sun Tzu is in command. A good leader must also be willing to follow. So, Sun Tzu demanded his generals listen to him. Those who listen, learn, and play as a team succeed. Those who think that they have nothing to learn from their superiors are arrogant and dangerous. Get rid of them.
Xcenobite
06-22-09, 04:45 AM
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him. I am unsure of this. Perhaps at the time it was written it was so. It was basically a manual for warfare. Being the first complete manual on warfare of its kind perhaps, any other nation would not have knowledge of it. As such he could say this.
However, it might very well be that some (enemy) General automatically does all these calculation by nature. A natural talent perhaps. One can just think of a person like Alexander the Great. I highly doubt he read this piece of art, but he got it right most of the time, on his own.
And nowadays most military officers are aware of this text and will surely have studied it.
Back then it might have been like a Formula-1 car against a normal car ... nowadays it will be two Formula-1 cars against eachother.
perhaps it would be best to add something to make it up to date:
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them correctly, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them correctly, will surely be defeated, remove him
Hey ... have mercy on me ... I hope you not think I am burning a bible here, or making changes to the Koran! :fnt2:
formlessness
10-13-09, 05:06 PM
to me this is saying that if oyu take what i teach you here and do these calculations, you will be able to come up with a winning strategy. if not, then your war efforts will be in vain.
Originally posted by formlessness
to me this is saying that if oyu take what i teach you here and do these calculations, you will be able to come up with a winning strategy. if not, then your war efforts will be in vain.
Pretty much correct. In my view, no matter how talented a guy, he must still to learn from his master, and then through practical experiences, he would be able to demonstrate his abilities.
EKG
A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him; a general who does not listen to my calculations, and does not use them, will surely be defeated, remove him.
Yin's version
Whatever mind doesn't understand the aow is a cadaver.. No power to change its direction.. No power to influence others.. No power to preserve its form.. Will surely rot soon.. Let him rot alone.. His mind is contagious stay away!
A mind that understands and cultivates the aow is a walking god, laughing god, eating god, playing god, dunking god! Never misses the basket...
Power=influence
Dead=no power
to me this is saying that if oyu take what i teach you here and do these calculations, you will be able to come up with a winning strategy. If not, then your war efforts will be in vain.
lmfao
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2013, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.