When a melting pot isn't melting

[sonshi]

Today, German Chancellor Merkel declared the death of multiculturalism (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-germany-multiculturalism-failures) in Germany. She said a German resident must believe in Christian values (not religion) and speak German.

What do you think? How does this relate to the United States?

Personally I believe it's wrong for a leader to push everyone into a single moral belief system, but I do think it rational to demand citizens to speak the official language. This isn't to say the official language is superior or that a second language isn't encouraged -- rather, for the practical purpose of communication, to promote a sense of unity.

Ultimately, people who enter another country must, in my opinion, show a willingness to assimilate and contribute to the system.

When my family escaped Vietnam in 1979, we were not only sold on the American system but risked our lives for it. I have no sympathy for those who bring their baggage from the old country because if it was so great, they need to stay there.

[Atreides]

Hi,

I never saw the Thou shalt "UNLESS" clause in the ten commandments. But, then again, the Big Ten didn't last two chapters in "The Good Book" . The Good Book also says stuff like; If someone does you harm turn the other cheek. But, then it shows, If you walk into a temple and see something that you don't think is right, don't ever tip over the tables like this... *Crash* or this *Tumble*... or like that *Smash*....

Another thing I can't stand is the "love it or leave it crowd." If something is good for only a few and not for the many then people have the right to say that something sucks and attack problems and present solutions. If people sit back and pretend the problems will just go away then they get worse.

Does anyone know the date when Starvation ended being a major issue in the U.S.A. ? I don't mean "Malnutrition", I mean Starvation caused by having NO FOOD TO EAT.

My guess is the 1950's after WWII. I say this because the Great Depression must have been the cause of thousands of deaths due to starvation.

Do me a favor and don't give me the statistics from the rest of the world. Please, Just stick to the statistics in the U.S.A.

Thanks again, Atreides

[Sarabaite]

Atr, I also think the "love it or leave it" crowd is misguided. Certainly we can learn from an outside perspective. It seems most people are willing to assimilate to a reasonable degree if given the chance to be accepted in the ways that they are different.

That being said, it does raise my hackles when some one appears to lack a basic amount of gratitude. If I moved to a new country and thought I was benefitting from that move, I would be even more determined to follow the rules of the country and be a positive contributor out of gratitude. Most people, I am certain, feel this way, and the few who do not are infuriating. This may show a bit of unfairness; after all, there are plenty of people who are born here who are worthless schmucks. Of course, I wouldn't cry terribly if their citizenship were revoked, but it's doubtful that we can dump our undesirable citizens on Antartica.

As for Merkel's dictum, I wonder how strictly she means it. Would she allow an atheist who agreed with the basic morals of Christianity? One would hope so. Still, it seems one's criminal record, or preferably lack thereof, would be more important and relevant to how someone would respect the structure of society. As for language, many people overestimate the numbers of immigrants who "don't want to learn." Personally, I think that if people were kinder to those who have accents, our new arrivals would be more willing to practice their English.

[sonshi]

Originally posted by Sarabaite
Atr, I also think the "love it or leave it" crowd is misguided. Certainly we can learn from an outside perspective. It seems most people are willing to assimilate to a reasonable degree if given the chance to be accepted in the ways that they are different.

That being said, it does raise my hackles when some one appears to lack a basic amount of gratitude. If I moved to a new country and thought I was benefitting from that move, I would be even more determined to follow the rules of the country and be a positive contributor out of gratitude. Most people, I am certain, feel this way, and the few who do not are infuriating. This may show a bit of unfairness; after all, there are plenty of people who are born here who are worthless schmucks. Of course, I wouldn't cry terribly if their citizenship were revoked, but it's doubtful that we can dump our undesirable citizens on Antartica.

As for Merkel's dictum, I wonder how strictly she means it. Would she allow an atheist who agreed with the basic morals of Christianity? One would hope so. Still, it seems one's criminal record, or preferably lack thereof, would be more important and relevant to how someone would respect the structure of society. As for language, many people overestimate the numbers of immigrants who "don't want to learn." Personally, I think that if people were kinder to those who have accents, our new arrivals would be more willing to practice their English.

I believe you would make a great governor of California, Sarabaite. Alas, I think Californians will have to settle this time around, too.

[Sarabaite]

=-) Thanks, Sonshi! Hopefully, the "settling" won't be so bad.

[Ferroto]

"Turks are conquering Germany in the same way as Kosovars conquered Kosovo – with a high birth rate." That statement reminds me of another infamous German politician.

While I do believe that one should respect the customs of the country they move to. Statements like the one above only serve to widen cultural rifts. The fact is that a country's government cannot control the direction of their nations culture. Culture is fluidic in that it can change to accommodate our ever changing society. We now live in a globalized world, thus we are evolving into a globalized culture. Our outdated definition of culture focuses on a concept that traditions and social mores are defined by imaginary lines on a map.

Merkel doesn't seem to understand that culture is no longer defined by a map. The "Chancellor of Germany's" ignorance on this fact is scary to say the least.

[sonshi]

Originally posted by Ferroto
That statement reminds me of another infamous German politician.

While I do believe that one should respect the customs of the country they move to. Statements like the one above only serve to widen cultural rifts. The fact is that a country's government cannot control the direction of their nations culture. Culture is fluidic in that it can change to accommodate our ever changing society. We now live in a globalized world, thus we are evolving into a globalized culture. Our outdated definition of culture focuses on a concept that traditions and social mores are defined by imaginary lines on a map.

Merkel doesn't seem to understand that culture is no longer defined by a map. The "Chancellor of Germany's" ignorance on this fact is scary to say the least.

Well said. Bloomberg BusinessWeek in their Oct 4, 2010 issue (page 80) reported that Turkish-Germans run some 80,000 businesses in Germany, employing on average of five people each. That's 400,000 Germans earning a living thanks to them. If Germany doesn't want them, we in the US would gladly welcome them!

http://images.businessweek.com/lede/10/350x230/0930_mz_cover.jpg

[Xcenobite]

I think you can not compare the USA to Europe.

I live in the Netherlands. We have peoples living in the Netherlands that came here 50 years ago, ... but still do not speak our language.

There is a time of tollarance, but if the persons that you invited decades back, have shown a total unwillingness to agree with your society, ... then something brakes. And what brakes is tollarance.

Now .. you may ask first "Why do they still not speak our language after 50 years?" That is a valid question.

It partly has to do with the attitude of my and other European nations of the time. Post WW2, European countries were booming industrial and heavy expanding economically. Back then they invited cheap labor from cheap countries all to eager. Marokko, Turkey, to name only 2.

Yet no effort was made to intergrate these ppl in our society. Now 2 or 3 generations later, due to the ignorance of Dutch society back then, we pay for it. (Heavy) Crime spawns from these communities. (though inNetherlands case, more so from Marrokan society then the Turkey one).

Though these 2nd or 3rd generation of immigrants speak the language fairly well, ... they tend to be an unwilling part of society. Wether that is by them self made, or created by the failing of previous governements doesnt even matter. Most of old Dutch society consider them a bad element in the new mixed society. Name it "multi-cultural" ... fact is that decades back their culture never mixed with ours, ... and now ... we clash.

9-11 Surely did not help as most of these peoples are Muslim too. But even prior 9-11 on avg more crimes were being commited by the smaller part of this new mixed society. And no that is me not bashng on them, ... it is reading numbers.

Now ... what are you suppose to do as the old dominant culture? A fixed answer has not been found yet.

In some countries in Europe the matter is worse, ... even more worse in some European cities even. I just have to point at the Paris riots of 1-2 years ago.

Europa does not have an answer yet. Europe aint the USA that is build on mixed nations of people. Europe = Europe. And They are They.

The mix is not liked by many people, and anything criminal spawning from those communities does not help. Fear grows and hatred thus too.

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It yells trouble, and that is how is is read by both communities, old and immigrants, .... It is trouble ... and integration aint as easy as you think.

The moment you mention "immigrant" ... they mark you as a rightwinged nazi. While all you try to do is mention the problem so we can work on it. Adolf Hitler is dead. But that WW2 disease is still infesting over Europe. The moment we are not allowed to name and point at the issue, as it is, .... we actually help true Neo-nazi's in their cause.

Europe aint USA.

... I think Merkel is right.

It spells trouble .... we do not want it ... but it comes nonetheless. Do not think it is one way .... The hatred is comming from both sides ... so be carefull at who you put the finger at !

I think those Muslims that live in Europe and want to work together with the rest of Europe, for intergration, should shed of their own ignorance and fairs and tell it for once-and for all ... and focus on their own none intergrated societies ... and point at the issue and tell it as it is.

And untill such time they do not ... we will keep having trouble.

And YEAH, it arent just non integrated muslims, 2nd or 3rd generations, that are causing fear amongst Europe, ... old European white do that too. But it IS TRUE that the minority is doing its very best to stick out, ... so it is their own community that should reckognise that.

Else ... what the hell our you doing living next to me ... if you think your own culural society is more important then the society you actually live in?

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I know my society has faults, ... please ... reckognise the faults in your own ... or fuck off.