02.014 When all strength has been exhausted and resources...

[sonshi]

When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

[markb287]

"When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves."-Sun-tzu.

I cannot explain this because it deals with the expenses at the times of Sun-tzu, and not the time of now.

[BingFa]

My interpretation of this Sun Tzu excerpt is that he is depicting the fact that Wars, especially protracted wars, envelope the citizen's of a nation and have the real potential to impoverish same.

In addition, I feel that Sun Tzu is indirectly alluding to the fact that in order to win a war, the military MUST have the support of the civilians. In other words, every one must be on the same page, so to speak.

When a nation is at war, it takes a unified, organized and concerted effort to supply the military forces with the victuals that they will need to accomplish their assigned mission. In all of history, I am unaware of any military force that was able to thrive without the moral, material and financial support of the citizenry.

In addition, I think Sun Tzu is making a comment on the interconnectedness of the home economy and supplying the war effort. One could also argue that this excerpt is related to Sun Tzu's insistence that Estimates be completed in advance of engaging a foe. Sun Tzu knew better than most the critical role that logistics play.

As most of you know, an ancient army on the move, especially a large one, consumed an enormous amount of resources. Thus, this excerpt is also connected to Master Wu's admonishment that one should live off of the enemy whenever possible.

Thankfully, prosecuting wars is generally a very expensive thing to do. And thank goodness that is the case because if it were not so expensive a proposition, mankind likely would have killed off the human race long ago.

Mankind is funny that way.

-BingFa

-BingFa

[Cardinal999]

Great pov from Bing Fa!

An example relating to Bing Fa's opinion is the Vietnam conflict. The US military did not get the proper support from their citizens and the politicians.

[gonzo]

As the cash flow decreases, the equipment will begin to fail from lack of maintenance and/or replacement.

Gonzo

[MonteChristo]

Building army takes a lot of time effort and energy. Re-building it takes even more resources as usually you have limited time to do it. So you have to make an exchange and use currently owned assets to re-build the army. This impoverishes people/organization and makes it less and less competitive and more vulnerable to external attacks and takeovers. That is why you should avoid loosing resource at all costs. The timing is very crucial. You should be able to defend yourself at all times.

[SunZulu]

Sun Tzu said, "When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves."

War is a serious and expensive matter.

When a countries scarce resources have been expended on materiel and logistics, the result will be a burden that will not be eased for generations (If at all).

[nightwolf]

"When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply
wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves. "

Sunzi continues the description of the economic and political consequences of a protracted war.

but it could also be an explicative note by earlier commentators.

[Dan]

When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

War is expensive and when fought improperly or over a long period of time (both of which could be considered the same thing) it depletes the resources of the government and the citizenry. Bringing economic ruin.

[dej2]

When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.
Sawyer’s Translation
"When their strength has been expended and their wealth depleted, then the houses in the central plains will be empty. The expenses of the hundred surnames will be some seven-tenths of whatever they have. The ruler’s irrecoverable expenditures—such as ruined chariots, exhausted horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberd-tipped and spear-tip (large, movable) protective shields, strong oxen, and large wagons—will consume six-tenths of his resources."

The Central Plains of China include the middle and lower reaches of the Yellow River, it is said to be the origins of the Chinese nation.

In other words the heart of China will be in ruin, due to the expense of waging war. He then give numerous examples of items that must be incurred to wage war. Afterwards Sun Tzu gives an estimated cost of 7/10 of the people’s wealth will be used to wage war; 6/10 of the ruler/governments wealth will be depleted in waging war.

If we move on to the next paragraph, Sun Tzu re-emphasizes the need to take supplies from the enemy. A wise general will not deplete his own nation’s resources but take those from the enemy.

NOTE: In Sun Tzu's era, Central Plains was indeed the center of China, Today it lies towards northern region of China, but is still considered the Central Plains region. If you ever plan a vacation in China, you may book a tour that covers the "Central Plains" region. The culture in this area is a national treasure and the local customs vividly demonstrate traditional Chinese culture. The customs in Shanxi, Henan, Shandong, Tianjin and Beijing evolved from the same roots and thus share many similarities. But there are also differences between regions. Visitors to these areas can discover the long history of traditional Chinese culture while learning about the Chinese descendants who live in various regions.

[pawn11]

Wars are expensive. Conflict of all stripes has related costs. It again brings me to a cental questions:
1) Why am I fighting in the first place.
2) If I am fighting how can I be victorious in an efficient manner.

Seems reasonable to me.

pawn11

[waterbearer]

When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

There is a limit to what a nation can provide its army. A wise general understands this, and knowing that the Calculation has been honored in the planning phase preceding the war, the wise general will have planned for the utilization of resources secured from the adversary.

[Truthseeker]

When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

I think this is a follow-up to the previous passage. Expense is a major part of competition and it should be looked upon seriously. Again ST warns of the ramifications expenses can have on one's organization if a tight rein is not applied.

[pol0311]

When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

Prolonged wars task a country and its people causing great strife finacially. The people become poor due to supplying the Army and resourses are depleted becaus eof the carnage caused by war. This is why Sun Tzu says the acme of skill is to win without fighting. The cost of war is extraordinary economically and personally.

[maxx]

When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

Now you seeking all that you can get cause the peoples energy to be dissapated.

Sorry this is such a sort post, i dont have much time.

Good day!

[Bushranger]

When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

Blow out ...

When the war has bogged down and we are at our limit, then also will the civilian economy be collapsing. Yet the cost of replacing and repairing the expendables of war will still be huge.

The end result? As the war drags on we will devote a large portion of our decreased economic capacity to the mere maintenance of the army, to such an extent that our reserves will be insufficient to equip and send off another significant force. Thus the necessity of getting it right with the troops at our disposal at war's start.

[Trinity]

When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

The expenses involved in fighting a war can economically ruin a nation. Is Master Sun giving us a warning not to become involved in long wars of attrition?

[Kansuke]

When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

If you wage war carelessly, raise your troops too often, supply from your own country, and simply behave in an unadvisable, stupid manner, your country will be stricken, crippled - and vulnerable.

In vulnerability, the country will also be totally economically barren - the idea of putting up a defense dies along with low taxes.

[FlamingCorndogs]

When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.


So even if the army sweeps the enemy from the field and crushes it utterly, the nation will still collapse from the center. And the jackals are always watching for that kind of chance.

[Saro]

I'm curious as to how Sun Tzu arrived at these particular figures. Seven tenths of the citizens' wealth and six tenths of the states reserves seem very specific though I suppose that's a statement on the economics of the day.

The underlying principle is still relevent, though, and is the same as the one repeated throughout this chapter. Basically, you must expend yourself to fight a war and if the war goes on too long your resources will be depleted.

I noticed this trend in the first chapter as well, and I wonder if perhaps Sun Tzu intentionally approached the same issue from different angles specifically so various readers would be able to interpret his main points. So far this point has been brought up through the importance of careful estimates in preparation, the effects of drawn out conflict on troops, through the effects on the economy and here it is approached from the aftermath. The perspective changes but the main point seems to be the same: prolonged warfare can be devastating even to the victor.

[lozen]

Guess it's good to look at the cost of war realistically before setting out. Kind of like planning a budget. What's the price of freedom, really??

[Uzume]

This passage continues Master Sun's explication concerning a state's impoverishment from its soldiers [Denma trans.], enumerating the potential costs of "doing business" on the battlefield--particularly when the conflict is protracted. Master Sun's figures here are rhetorical, but illustrative. They serve to get the point across, underscoring what he has said previously concerning the need for good intelligence, assessment, and planning.

Master Sun advises the sage leadership to take a global view of the military's function. :yy: While it's the business of the military to win battles in the field and bring opposing armies to their knees, this can't be removed from supporting socio-economic considerations back home any more than it can be separated from geopolitical ones rationalizing its use. :grad:

[Realist]

When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.
I think this refers again to taking from the enemy to increase your own strength. Preserve your own resources. Keep them tenable. Do not spend more than necessary, be sure not to exhaust your soldiers or they shan't work as hard. Take from the enemy, so your might retain all the military's reserves and the citizen's wealth. This way, your army is tenable and you weaken the enemy in the process. Preserve! Preserve! Preserve!

[Vesting]

Originally posted by sonshi
When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

Note that the estimate of the costs to engage into ancient warfare took approx 7/10 of the own citizens' wealth and 'only' 6/10 of the government reserves. Appearantly, the ancient Chinese noblemen and their bureacrats cared well for themselves.

Sun Tzu tries here to convey the message that is very important not to impoverish your own people, stressing the point again by repetition, otherwise they will eventually tend to rebel against you -- especially if you don't have their full commitment to persue the ongoing war effort against a distant enemy.

For sure, a wise general will not deplete his own nation’s resources, but take those from the enemy's ground too. There is raising a dilemma to be solved here, though, if you try to live mainly from the land of the invaded country. If you rob most of the enemy's provisions, then you'll also risk to get their citizens to rebel aganist your invading effort.

Therefore, as a wise general, it's your duty and in your own enlightened self-interest to find the optimum balance between robbing your own citizens from their food supplies, while at the same time you eat from the land and provisions of the enemy.


Notes
--------

The Sawyer’s translation mentions the term of 'the hundred names', which is a synonym for the ancesters of the Chinese people. It is not mentioned in the Denma translation ('names' means families).

I've found it interesting to learn that the Central Plains, which are now situated in the Northern parts of China, near the lower reaches of the Yellow River, are the origin of the Chinese civilization.

Studying maps and areophotographs of the particular region will soon make clear how dangerous waging a war was in those times.

[Hazard]

Originally posted by sonshi
When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

If you allow your army to be defeated and your supplies to be depleted the only choices you have are:

1) surrender and accept unfavorable terms
2) attempt to rebuild your army further deepening the whole your in and neglecting the needs of the battle-torn land and its people.

Avoid this problem by not allowing it to happen in the first place.

[Hephaestus]

Originally posted by sonshi
When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

When you use your own supplies, not only does your nation become discontent, but the reserves are drained and morale dwindles.

[Bubishi]

Originally posted by sonshi
When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

If a river runs out of water it becomes dry and a desert. Running out of resources not only hurts the army, it hurts the nation as a whole.

[Duncan]

Originally posted by sonshi
When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves. Sun Tzu recognises that going to war effects the entire nation. As the length of a campaign increases the troops ability to pursue it and the nation's ability to support it decreases. Aslo think on opportunity cost. How many doctors or scientists could be trained for the cost of developing a new weapons system? Should the US put it's financial power behind another aircraft carrier or cancer research? Etc...

[Yin]

When all strength has been exhausted and resources depleted, all houses in the central plains utterly impoverished, seven-tenths of the citizens' wealth dissipated, the government's expenses from damaged chariots, worn-out horses, armor, helmets, arrows and crossbows, halberds and shields, draft oxen, and heavy supply wagons, will be six-tenths of its reserves.

a big hole

For water to effortlessly enter