Sun Tzu in the stockmarket

[warlord]

Hello everyone! This is a great site. Sun Tzu is always a good subject for interesting discussion.

Does anyone have any working theories how to apply Sun Tzu in the stockmarket? There if anywhere it is all out deceptive warfare. I have found the concept of cheng and ch'i useful in trying to understand whats' going on. The explanation from the Griffith translation: "The normal (cheng) force fixes and distracts the enemy; the extraordinary (ch'i) forces act when and where their blows are not anticipated. Should the enemy percieve and respond to a ch'i maneuvre in such a way as to neutralize it, the maneuvre would automatically become cheng."

There is a saying that "a fool and his money are soon separated". Now I know why the market always catches everyone off guard. :rolleyes:

[markb287]

There is a book by Gary Galardi, called the Art of Marketing. He translated it and put in applicable terms for the marketing and business world. If you want to know his website, it is www.clearbridge.com (http://www.clearbridge.com)

[Taylor]

The stock market is all about people who have power already, deciding who gets to make/have more power.
You have to have insider information to effectively gain control of the market.
The strength of the market is that it has been made so complicated, no ordinary joe can effectively determine what the hell is going on, specifically, where the money is going to and fro.
I had a friend who thought he could gain a market leverage by going with around 10 websites that were charting market prices and trends. These web sites were giving information for free.
Well, on this planet nothing is free.(cliche#35)
If you want to make money on the market, you will have to figure a way to cheat the system while breaking no law if caught.
Creating your own rules that others have to play thereby gaining a quality advantage
of systems.
So, I recommend studying the market system itself.
However, as stated above, the system is controlled and it is made complicated for further control.
For me, the only way to do it is either control the information or create it.
It can be true,false or combination.
But, again you will have to be in the fold to attempt such a move, if you want it to last.
That 16 year old who made money did all well and good, but he DID get caught.
Creating a web site to drum up support for stock has beeen tried.
See, Sun-Tzu stresses the way and teamwork.
The way is basically the "zone".
You know, a day like when all types of women are hitting on you and want you.
Sun-Tzu's teamwork, his so-called "trust",
allows for a generals army to effectively able to morph itself into whatever form is needed to win. This "trust" galvanizes those under your command to go past weapon system usage or skill in weapons and use the advantage of teamwork.
His idea, is that if one side can do one thing well and the other can do 50, then the side with 50 will win.
The above sentence is one way to describe the process that goes on in conflict, but I find it a little static.
Or the side that can create 50 ways will win.
Another way to look at it, is to assume that humans as social animals affect each other individually in such a way that we are not conciously aware of. And this creates our group formations/dynamics.
Such creative forces are hard to gauge if
they are creating.
In fact conciously we perhaps will never be able to understand some levels of the way we interact.
Anyway, for Sun-Tzu the formlessness to be gotten is due to the activity of the group on a "higher" level order than the other side.
Again, this higher order can not be conciously thought of.
Like the "zone".
When I am in the zone, if i think about how i got there, I can F%$^$ it up.
It is a state of mind that cannot be thought of. It just is.
And if a whole Armed forces could get into the "zone" they would be unbeatable.

And for Sun-Tzu the best way to get into the zone was trust. Total. Up and down. Left and right. Of everyone for everyone to everyone.
Not subserviance.
Then, soldiers to generals would become relaxed and be able to make, create, decide, react, in a "natural" + "relaxed" way due to trust.
This is different than confidence.
Confidence in this case would be spawned by trust, but would not be the base.
So, if you want to make money off the stockmarket you need a team to be able to react in a myriad of ways that even you are not capable of conceiveing,
and you need to base it on trust.
But your focus on trust will have to be expanded.
To what form, well, you will have to trust to that.
War is one thing.
Business and money are another.
Or are they?
I think so, but others disagree.
But to be a total general one will have to combine the two.
This has already been done by many men/women,
but to study the past, one is basically investing his/her own perspective.
I am rambling, but the point is that statistics and texts are one thing.
Human trust cannot be defined.
It has to be lived for its meaning is best felt, its soul is the key to victory.
According to Sun-Tzu.
And the
way.

[warlord]

Taylor

I'd much rather study Zun Tzu than the market system where every other expert is wrong most of the time and cannot give straight answers to simple questions. Also there are a hundred opinions for a hundred experts. Maybe what controls the market is using the marketsystem itself.

Picture yourself as the observer not as the general and observe the antagonistic expression of energy(war). The bullmarket ended aroud mars 2000. The catalyst was the microsoft case. From this turningpoint the market didn't look back. Up until then the market was very strong(cheng). What followed was a correctly timed ch'i move and thus the following panic. The market didn't look back beacuse the event fitted the profile of a ch'i maneuver,that means it had the power to turn greed into fear at that moment in that marketconditions. Subtle manipulation of perception in the spirit of "...when one rolls boulders down hills. The force applied is minute but the effects...". "When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of it's prey it is beacuse of timing" creating a momentum.

I predict at this time that the WTC disaster is another turningpoint. It is working in a ch'i fashion. These catalysts are dependent on peoples psychology and expectations to always produce a punch below the belt. People were probably expecting some positive sign about the economy to turn things around, instead they get a horrible disaster. An event is taken as the catalyst for change beacuse it is a ch'i maneuver on the multitude and for no other reason. This is beacuse it is war, competition for resources. The scarcity mentality, no matter how much abundance there really is.

If the market is a deceptive powergame controlled by the Illuminati it is all the more probable that this is the way it works. Then all the T.V coverage is just a front to fix peoples attention and fragment it into a million pieces so they are easily set up for the deceptive ch'i maeuvers that takes the peoples money to line the pockets of the powerelite. That would be a clever deception, wouldn't it. Fixed systems that follows charts or economics are part of the (cheng) and thus becomes unreliable.

This thing you call the "zone" sounds like the principle of "flow" or being in the moment, at one with what one is doing and surroundings and not living inside ones' head. Thus you will also send subliminal signals all around you. Perhaps this is what great leaders do.

About "free information" I think that one has to earn every bit of information one has. You have to become it or else it is useless. "Free information" is a contradiction in terms.

War is different from business in that business is more focused on creation of values, at least it should be. And thus it is a more unified expression of energy than war. The antagonistic expression of energy is at the root of both war and the moneygame due to the competition for a specific resource.

I don't think it's necessary to try to understand where money goes in or out and all the supposed reasons for this or that. As I stated earlier that may be a (cheng) maneuver to set one up.

Truth to be told, if everyone had the courage to act on their instincts, most people wold be millionares.

If one can see the current situation as cheng, the ch'i can be anticipated.

[Taylor]

(Disclaimer: I would just like to say, that I do not intend to be personal and hope like wise. I do not want another middle east conflict on my hands.)
If you have all the answers, why are you asking questions?
From your response, it seems you knew the answer to your question, thereby setting people up for ambush.
If you want your answers, they are already inside of you, and you do not need anyone else.
I think I answered your question.
You are looking for a quick fix.
I do not believe in conspiracies per se.
I do believe that market decisions are made by very important people and that these decisions are sometimes leaked or covered up.
If you want to believe in an illuminati, go ahead.
I see that you are looking for answers from events to gauge market forces.
Just watch out that you see what you want to see.
If you say it is a deceptive power game, I did not say it is deceptive, because its right in front of everyones face of who controls the economies of the world.
It can also be truthful. Or anything else.
I said what I said.
It is in the above post.
As for you stating that everyone will be millionares, well you need poor people for there to be rich.
That is the capitalist way.
I am not putting it down, just stating a fact. Supply and demand. Scarcity control.
If you want to believe cheng and chi drive forces, and you think it works, what are you doing here writing on this website?
Why are you not out there making money and being a success?
Why would you waste your time here if you know all the answers?
I know I wouldn't.
And thanks for attacking me.
It gives me an opportunity to counter-attack.
Again this is just business.
By the way,
it takes money to make money.
(cliche#69)
I don't think it's necessary to try to understand where money goes in or out and all the supposed reasons for this or that. As I stated earlier that may be a (cheng) maneuver to set one up.


But you don't know either.
I admit I don't know.
But who controls the money?
And how?
The system itself is the illuminati.
This is its strength.
This is its translucency.
Now are you gonna tear me to shreads?

[warlord]

I'm asking questions to learn and to discuss the theory of Sun Tzu as is the purpose of these boards. I am on a quest for knowledge pure and simple. That involves being creative with questions and answers as well and developing the theory. Knowledge can be recieved at many levels as well.

What I discussed in the above posts is a developing theory that should provide a winning perception.

Do you believe Sun Tzu has universal application? Do you believe in the application of it's principes? If so, why then write "wan't to believe in chin and cheng in the market?"

There are many fingers pointed in your post I see.

CONSPIRACIES
The existence of the Illuminati is really not important in this context. Mind you that there are foundation in the world. All is not just wishful thinking. Get out of the X-files mindset. I agree that marketdecisions are made by important people but those marketdcisions only have the weight relative to their value as a ch'i or cheng maneuver.

About conspiracies, your entire life people, market forces and countless others have conspired for control of your mind. Most of it you have been unaware of and still are.

CAPITALISM
Any system can be used for good or bad purposes. Thus it needs an injection of higher values and courageous investments concerning the whole planets' prosperity instead of just trying to protect the past achievements of individual states.

WASTE OF TIME
Does discussing the application of Zun Tzu seem like a waste of time? Doesn't it have any value? Does applying and writing contradict?

ATTACK?
I did not intend to attack o sensitive one.
Reread the stuff about the faults of a general.

Lastly, I don't know but I'm willing to learn.

[Taylor]

Its a waste of time if your only outlet is to talk about it here and you are not doing well finacially in the world.
But you did ask a question, then answer it yourself.
Do you believe Sun Tzu has universal application? Do you believe in the application of it's principes? If so, why then write "wan't to believe in chin and cheng in the market?"

There are many fingers pointed in your post I see.


My point is that in your response to me, you had the answer. In your response to me, you pointed to me.

CONSPIRACIES
The existence of the Illuminati is really not important in this context. Mind you that there are foundation in the world. All is not just wishful thinking. Get out of the X-files mindset. I agree that marketdecisions are made by important people but those marketdcisions only have the weight relative to their value as a ch'i or cheng maneuver.

About conspiracies, your entire life people, market forces and countless others have conspired for control of your mind. Most of it you have been unaware of and still are.



And then you contradict yourself, saying illuminatis exist but we souldn't worry about it and then to ignore conspiracies.

ATTACK?
I did not intend to attack o sensitive one.
Reread the stuff about the faults of a general.

I think you should reread your response post
to my original post.

Look, I hope you make so much money you don't have to waste your time here.
I hope you make so much money you, your kids, your wives live luxuriously and never have to work again.
I hope you make so much money that you can buy a new body and live everlastingly.
This planet makes me sick when it comes to money.
For you to say that everyone can become a millionaire I say prove it.
It has not happened.

In war, you try to make it simple.
You try to say "this is the enemy"
and then you have a target to attack.
In business, who is the enemy?
Yourself?
Time?
Competition?
Customers?
The system?
Everything?
Nothing?
I say its all a lie to keep everyone going.
This planet of humans is one big joke.
If you want to apply war to business, which I gather has been used, and you want to
LEARN
it is not going to happen here.
You will have to go out into the world.
Discussion is only good to feel that you are listened to...I just looked into the mirror as I wrote this.
You will succeed, but you need experience.
Theory can only go so far.
Talk is cheap.
Actions speak louder than words.
My problem is that I am too cynical for my own good.
As for you, you seem to have a good grasp of things, play the game.
Of course, don't listen to me.
Listen to yourself.

[warlord]

I do not write here as an outlet but writing can be expansive, don't you agree?

I understand where you are coming from when you say that "the whole planet of humans is a lie". It is vital to separate appearance from substance. I do not see the pursuit of money as any kind of holy grail or even a solution to any problems. I hope to make money but I know that it will be meaningless in itself. "Do not expect the world to offer solutions to problems that it is its' purpose to keep" is a nice quote from one of my favourite books. Sun Tzu is in my opinion a good guide to the behaviour of energy that haven't yet discovered itself, that is antagonistic energy that turns in on itself. Although it is not congruent with the nature of the human soul it is necessary to study Sun Tzu for the purpose of awareness.

Never say that "this is the enemy!" Think about this. You can only condemn yourself. I think Sun Tzu is the last book you should be reading. You shoud be reading a course in miracles.

[sonshi]

Originally posted by Taylor:
If you want to make money on the market, you will have to figure a way to cheat the system while breaking no law if caught. Creating your own rules that others have to play thereby gaining a quality advantage of systems. So, I recommend studying the market system itself.

Taylor raised a good point. "Cheat" may not be the best word but certainly having information that other people do not have or care to look up. The stock market's current prices are theoretically based on the free flow of information through quarterly and annual financial reports; everyone is on equal footing. However, there are two major reasons why this is not the case. First, the CEO, CFO, internal financial managers, and institutional investors are more likely to have a better (and sooner) feel of a company's economic position than the average investor. Second, let us not forget the "fear and greed" factor in stock transactions. All too often, investors don't know much about a company but put money into it. As a result, all logic in the stock market goes out the window. For example, there was a point when the market valued Palm -- then almost wholly owned by 3Com Corporation -- more than 3Com itself! Despite the possible unfairness from the first reason, the second reason is enough for a rational, diligent, and knowledgeable investor to still make money in the stock market. He or she has patience, and gains in the aftermath of fear and greed. This is why "the world's greatest stock investor" Warren Buffett (a self-described technophobe) usually invests in traditional companies; they're the ones he knows best. Salon.com stated it best:

He looks for undervalued companies with low overhead costs, high growth potential, strong market share and low price-to-earning ratios, and then waits for the rest of the world to catch up.

[warlord]

Warren Buffett has invested in valuecompanies and watches his wealth grow with them over time. This approach virtually eliminates the fear/greed factor over time. I heard that the only thing he cares about is increasing his share in the companies. This is pretty much the same as mutual fund investing. About the same returns as an average mutual fund I remember reading somewhere.

I think the markets are getting more and more divorced from their fundamentals just as currency isn't backed by gold anymore. Even professional analysts and intitutions jump on the greed/fear bandwagon. They didn't lower their ratings on techstocks until many had already fallen with ninety percent. And these are the persons everyone trusts.

The market sees what it wants to see, sometimes it panics beacuse someone said BOO, other times the sky would have to fall down before the market would drop.

Granted, every standard approach works some of the time but not all of the time.

[Sir H. Master]

Cool... money... it makes the world go around.

I'm not a financial wiZ-kid, so I might have trouble debating on this subject.

-...NOT...- haha

Lukely I'm a huge 1st hand SF fan and a true 2nd hand Star Trek fan, and I have my little book of Ferengi-rules-of-acquisition nearby. (I'm not trying to downgrade the subject here! Because I am a Star-Trek fan!! Read-on and you will see why I'm not down-grading!)

I've already been thinking for a while.... Rules on whatever subject, may be applied on whatever other subject you wish.

So the pointed question here on this topic should actually be:
"Can the rules of war (which Sun Tzu is just a little part of) be used on the stock market?"

I'd say YES, some rules may apply, some won't Who ever says "it doesn't", doesn't understand what rules litteraly means.

It's just ABC-text which writes down a certain need or wish for activity or understanding for a certain occuring situation or event. It might and probably can be implemented on whatever subject you wish.
I hope it's clear what I'm trying to say here. My own language isn't english (it's dutch), so I hope what I'm trying to say is understood here. (If not, tell me what is not clear, because I have trouble writing down what I mean myself, in english. I'll try to be explain better if you ask me)

Just write down your own rules of engagement in battle, and it will always apply on a certain situation on whatever other subject you wish.

Were do we draw the line? What are the pure rules of war? Are there pure rules of war? A need for a possible new topic?

I do feel it's needed....

GreetZ,
Sir H. Master

[warlord]

English isn't my native languge either and I understand perfectly well what you are writing.

I tought the ferengi rules of aquisition would be a heavy volume. I like Star trek too to the extent that I enjoy watching it on TV. It has much toughtprovoking content. Sadly most people can't look past the alien makeup.

Rules for war(or anything else) are always by their very nature a limitation, a limitation whose purpose is to facilitate a higher level of awareness but if taken as gospel becomes a weakness.

Rules are always subject to the process of evolution as awareness increases beacuse increase in awareness is their purpose and THERE IS NO LIMIT TO KNOWLEDGE. The entire concept of war is also a limitation so to try to find any absolute rules for it one would have to work with the concept as an isolated and fixed thing and thus make it unreal. To act like there is a limit to knowledge is to cut oneself short and set oneself up for defeat.

[Sir H. Master]

I agree on that.

As for the stockmarket. There probably is a good stategy for progress and succes. But perhaps even bigger than in wars, it's influenced by so much things you have to look out for every day.
So don't you think luck makes out a big part of succes in the stockmarket, more so then in war?
1st, thing should ofcourse be, to know your opponent.
2nd, take an oppertunity when it presents itself.
3rd, be sure to have some backup if things go wrong.

[warlord]

There are people that bought this or that stock twenty years ago or got a portfolio as a gift etc. and they got lucky beacuse the stocks they happened to own became a success. This is the most common lucky investment I would think.

Some planned successes are easier to manifest than others. You ride the trend during a bullmarket. you just hop on the bandwagon and hope the bullmarket doesn't end soon(luckfactor). Of corse if you can "shape the enemy" you can (almost)neutralize the luckfactor by knowing the importance of the situation relative to the enemy. Of course "one may know how to win but cannot necessarily do so."

"His potential is that of a fully drawn crossbow, his timing the release of the trigger." Or in this contxt one follows the mounting tension(cheng) and can anticipate and plan for the release of the trigger(ch'i). Beacuse people fight in the hope of winning the arrow will pierce their hearts every time. They are choosing not to see the release of the trigger beacuse they see the (cheng) phase as mounting strength and CLING TO IT as is the purpose of the cheng. Reliance on luck(wishful thinking) will be more and more attractive as the chengphase progresses. No one is excempt from this, even big firms and experts fall for it.

"To win a hardfought battle or to win by luck is not the acme of skill."
"to foresee a victory the ordinary man can foresee is not the acme of skill." In fact the whole chapter "dispositions" seem to answer your questions very well.

[sonshi]

We found this discussion so fascinating, we extended it on today's Sonshi Daily (11/8/01 (http://www.sonshi.com/daily.html)).

[Taylor]

The only problem with this information, on what Buffet does and in fact what Sun-Tzu says, is that if everyone knows about the theory and practice then it will be copied by everyone.
Thus you have to create something or use something that has never been used before.
And be able to constantly adjust for newer ideas and things to gain an edge on the enemy.
If the worst enemy is yourself, this leads to interesting situations....

Also there are a hundred opinions for a hundred experts. Maybe what controls the market is using the marketsystem itself

One thing, Warlord.
Why would you listen to some guy you don't know, who has a vested interest in the system
you want to buy into?
In other words, don't take what he says literally but in comparisons to others.
Maybe what controls the market is all these a%&holes blowing off their mouths.
Again, I hope you make so much money you can buy true love.
I hope you make so much money, that your individual happiness rubs of onto humanity and makes everyone care about each other.
I hope that all the money by the capitalist system generated can feed the poor, stop suffering, make women all have men who have goals and be successes and let humanity go out into space colonize the universe and claim it in the name of the human race.
I hope that all the money this planet earth ever creates along with this galaxy and all the other ones we colonize and conquer allows humans to stop the destruction of the universe (if) when it recontracts and creates another big bang.

[warlord]

I know from my own life that no matter what you read you still have to go out and do all of the mistakes before you will believe what is written or have the awareness to make any of it useful.
The people who read Buffetts books will not necessarily benefit beacuse they will be sidetracked, fooled by others or othervise manage to mess up and get discouraged. Buffetts' charachter has evolved alongside his worldly success. His systems are a part of him and his charachter makes it work for him.

When enough bookreading wannabees follow the trend it creates more greed/fear momentum that the people that wrote the books feed on.

There is no substitute for experience. mastery in any field (over the longterm) is directly tied to mastery over the self and all the writings are only a mirror.

[warlord]

Likewise the world has to make all it's own mistakes before it will believe what is written.