04.001 In ancient times, those skilled in warfare...

[sonshi]

In ancient times, those skilled in warfare make themselves invincible and then wait for the enemy to become vulnerable. Being invincible depends on oneself, but the enemy becoming vulnerable depends on himself.

An enemy becomes vulnerable by not training properly and this is a result of employing ineffective leaders.

Basically, vulnerability is borne from doing things that should not be done, or not doing the things that should be done.

In either case, doing the wrong things makes one vulnerable. When wrong things are done, it is ALWAYS the wrong time. By contrast, it is possible to do the right things at the wrong time, and this too is wrong and results in increased vulnerability. So it is no mistake that each day of Boot camp is carefully scripted.

Invincibility results from doing the right things at the right times.

Nothing more be said.

-BingFa

Good POV. Bing Fa.

/// *** In ancient times, those skilled in warfare make themselves invincible and then wait for the enemy to become vulnerable. Being invincible depends on oneself, but the enemy becoming vulnerable depends on himself. *** ///

The wise strategic leader pre-stages himself (or herself) and his team of professionals through solid preparation and foreknowledge before the conflict ever begins.

The pre-stage game starts with him and only him. He does not worry about what the opposition is going to do.

[dragonmaster]

Originally Posted by Cardinal999

Good POV. Bing Fa.

/// *** In ancient times, those skilled in warfare make themselves invincible and then wait for the enemy to become vulnerable. Being invincible depends on oneself, but the enemy becoming vulnerable depends on himself. *** ///

The wise strategic leader pre-stages himself (or herself) and his team of professionals through solid preparation and foreknowledge before the conflict ever begins.

The pre-stage game starts with him and only him. He does not worry about what the opposition is going to do.

that seems like a way to be destroyed. you start the pre-stage game BECAUSE you worry about what the opposition will do. if i think your going to attack me, and i attack you first, if your going to be a fluid opponent, i'm going to train my army to fight fluidly to combat your army effectively. just like Sun Tzu said, One who does not know the enemy and does not know himself will be in danger in every battle.

[Yin]

Originally Posted by dragonmaster

that seems like a way to be destroyed. you start the pre-stage game BECAUSE you worry about what the opposition will do. if i think your going to attack me, and i attack you first, if your going to be a fluid opponent, i'm going to train my army to fight fluidly to combat your army effectively. just like Sun Tzu said, One who does not know the enemy and does not know himself will be in danger in every battle.

You're right.. One will be hit by unseen threats if one doesn't "look" for threats..

[gonzo]

Back in the old days . . .

Wait for your opponent to open himself up for an attack and then exploit it.

Gonzo

Hsing, the strategic position, or the art of creating the strategic position is about being formless.

When you are formless, or simpler said, when you are one with your environment, you can rule the environment and thus control everything that happens within. Your enemy must follow!

"Therefore, those skilled in moving the enemy use formation to which the enemy must respond."

"The ultimate skill is to take up a position where you are formless. If you are formless, the most penetrating spies will not be able to discern you, or the wisest counsels will not be able to do calculations against you."

So doing, you can become invincible and win every fight upfront. But victory still depends on the enemy too, because of the simple reason, that if he's formless too, the two of you are both invincible, in that case none can attack, it's the ultimate status quo, so to speak.

That's why you can say, that you can know how to win, but not be able to do so!

Silvester Polderman

Sun Tzu said, “In ancient times, those skilled in warfare make themselves invincible and then wait for the enemy to become vulnerable. Being invincible depends on oneself, but the enemy becoming vulnerable depends on himself.”

The general is responsible and accountable for the capability of his defenses. The general is also responsible for finding and exploiting the flaws in the opposition’s defenses.

"In ancient times, those skilled in warfare make themselves invincible and then wait for the enemy to become vulnerable. Being invincible depends on oneself, but the enemy becoming vulnerable depends on himself."

Prepare yourself and then wait the strategic mistakes of the enemy.

[HALBLEU]

In real warfare, the supreme strategist takes stride and pride on preparing himself in a position of superiority. ... He or she does not care what the opponent does. ... The SUPREME STRATEGIST prelocated himself into a total position of winning by preparing him or herself based on a checklist that is consisted of action items that can be found on Chapter 1, 2 and 3.

"THE ART OF DEFENSE IS BASED ON PREPARATION."

[Dan]

In ancient times, those skilled in warfare make themselves invincible and then wait for the enemy to become vulnerable.

You make your postition unassailable before you think to start attacking. Make sure your defence is good before you worry about offence. Then when your opponent has no way to attack you and win, you start looking for weaknesses in your enemies defences. When a weakness shows, attack hard and use it to the best of your advantage while keeping your position unassailable.

Being invincible depends on oneself, but the enemy becoming vulnerable depends on himself.

Only you can make yourself invincible. I don't quite agree with Sun-Tzu about only the enemy being able o make himself vulnerable.. By using spies, psychological warfare, deception, and the like you can make your enemy vulnerable. So, it's not something you just have to passivaly sit back and wait for.

[Captain_John]

In ancient times, those skilled in warfare make themselves invincible and then wait for the enemy to become vulnerable. Being invincible depends on oneself, but the enemy becoming vulnerable depends on himself.


Let's dissect this one:

"those skilled in warfare make themselves invincible and then wait for the enemy to become vulnerable"

An important factor: TIme
An important factor: Intell
An important hinge factor: Guest vs. Host

If your playing the part of the Host, your state should have an advantage of streanghten defensive terrain (1). Hard to pick a place to attack if everything looks strong. This is based more on appearances, the first face of Hsing. The time factor isn't terribly relevant to the host under these conditions if the objective is aweing the enemy.

The deposition of the opposition to the Guest is also important. If it's a border clash, they may very well both be playing the part of host, and theoretically both have an advantage given the time fractor since both have prepared for the other.

If it's an agressive attack and their the guest, you have prior knowledge of terrain (at least you SHOULD have it!) and the people (ditto) and their Hsing potentially is more restrictive in the beginning, their army's deployment will have to more deceptive (be it more passive or agressive than on would have thought, or stongpoints and vitals in unusual places) to achieve it. A good example of Hsing deployment would be Wellington's troops on the way to Waterloo. So long as they wither can't or are unwilling to find a place to fight, you've acheived formlessness.

If your playing the guest (or depending on remoteness and the unification of the people to the ruler{such as recently conquered or a opperssed people}, the host), the time factor is vital if your dependant on logistics from home, sending out foraging parties can open you up for an easy attack, as well as leaking vital intel on your location. Wrong season, and you may end up being forced into an aggresive position.

An important question: What constitutes the attack? An attack against the enemy, or thier plans, or thier potential for future planning?

A second important question, what if two oppenents fighting are both acting as the guest?

A third important question: what if the calculations made by the two sides only calculate each other without calculating others, such as a foreign state or anarchists from within attacking?

Another important question: Can a state ensure formlessness by destroying the foundation of the enemy's suspicions and deny a place for spies and defeat the enemy without ever raising an army of their own? Would this not represent the height of Sun Tzu's strategy? Can you think up an historical incident of this happening in ancient China?

[Captain_John]

Being invincible depends on oneself, but the enemy becoming vulnerable depends on himself.

Can a third party ensure your invinciblity despite yourself, such as America does for Europe?Vice Versa, such as in Korea against the North 50 years ago?

Is he suggesting pre-cognitive thinking in exteams of unforeseen Climate?

[MonteChristo]

“Warfare is a great matter to a nation; it is the ground of death and of life; it is the way of survival and of destruction …”

To survive one has to be able defend himself first. It is seen as a priority. To become invincible one has to secure his position. When this is done one can seek a chance for the victory.

Vulnerability does depend on the opponent. It is his lack of care, which creates one.

I try to frame this phrase in the context of a job interview as a battle. By having the work history, education and references one becomes a credible candidate. By circumventing the person doing the hiring and going directly to the person in charge of hiring can essentially win a battle with out fighting.

I do find interviews to be like an assult on a fortified position unless you are the best prepared and have some luck you will be left on the hill with the majority of the candidates.

Pawn 11