01.018 Before doing battle, in the temple...

[Shaun Halligan]

"Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made"

I think this relates to the 5 factors (and 7 considerations) that Sun Tzu outlines in the begining of the chapter.

"One, Way, two, Heaven, three, Ground, four, General, five, Law."

"Ask:

Which ruler has the Way,

which general has the ability,

which has gained Heaven and Ground,

which carried out Law and commands,

which army is strong,

which officers and soldiers are trained,

which reward and punish clearly,

by means of these, I know victory and defeat! ? "

[Realist]

Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made;

(Great, someone got there before me!) Sun Tzu is referring to the five factors. Calculate and compare all of these factors, and every aspect of them, and you shall be victorious. The temple is a place of serenity, solitude and contemplation. Thus, our perception is not eluded and we can think clearly. Sometimes, even in calculating, one loses because they did not calculate every factor or they just didn't calculate every aspect of it. Even doing this, they might still be in peril if they failed to make the necessary comparisons. Calculate, compare - once you've done this, you implement them; you start to make the fundamental preparations.

[Vesting]

Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made;

After reading the various earlier commentaries, I've decided to borrow the interpretation of this particular passage mostly from Dan's posting, with a few sentences paraphrased from remarks coined by some other keen members of this forum. I've written my own few thoughs about this particular section, between Dan's orginal remarks. I don't have much to add.

That being said, I my opinion one should consider to study in-depth the methods of deploying strategies, and particular the usage logistics, in the long-term campains and battlefields of recent modern warfare, to get truly an intellectual hold on this passage. The Battle of Normandy of June 1944, e.g., comes to my mind. You better should study the idiosyncracies of your fellow humans beings as well as the usage of logistics.

Before doing battle,

This part is important. Make accurate but flexible plans before battle, as in the heat of battle, intelligence will not be as accurate, you will not have as much time to calculate, your calculations may be blurred because of a press for time or outside stimuli, and getting orders to your forces will be much tougher.

in the temple one calculates and will win,

Calculate to win. Keep your eye on the prize, which is victory. Always make sure victory is your goal and not to lose sight of your goal while planning. The temple today could be replaced with headquarters.

The term 'temple' symbolically relates to the ability of the general to cultivate at all times and against all odds a serene state of his mind. It might be a way to refer to the ideal character of the general as depicted by Sun Tzu..

because many calculations were made;

Plan for all eventualities. There will always be something that will pop-up that could not have been planned for, but the more circumstances you plan for before fighting begins, the better training your troops may have recieved for each situation and the less you'll have to plan for on the fly.

before doing battle,

This is said, again, to emphasize the importance of contingency planning before fighting.

in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made;

This is just the opposite of what was said earlier. This is used mainly for effect and emphasis. To drill it into your head and outline the consequences of failing to plan which is failure on the field.

The following paragraph was originally posted by MonteChristo. I've found it of particular interest here, as the available time resources, of the lack theroef, can be used as weapon in itself:

Originally posted by MonteChristo
There is a trade-off between how detailed plan we can have and how much time we have to spend on preparing it. Also we have to consider that time can also be considered as a resource and it is up to the commander how much of it will be allocated to planning and how much to action.

[Hephaestus]

Originally posted by sonshi
Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made;

This provides us with a little bit of a dilemma, because while the more calculations you do before battle, the more likely you are to be victorious, but at the same time your enemy is making calculations, and so it is also a race to see who finishes theirs first. The question is, how much is enough to each leader? If you take a long time making many calculations, so as to prepare for open conflict, your opponent may take a short time planning an attack on your encampment, striking you unaware, while you are still making your calculations. At the same time, you can make less calculations than your opponent, and meet him on the battlefield and lose. And so, it is not only a race, but a heated game of rock-paper-scissors as to not only how many calculations are too few or enough, but what is too many as well.

[Bubishi]

Originally posted by sonshi
[B]Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made

Like Sun Tzu stated before,

If your enemy attacks you where you are not prepared, you will be defeated.

Therefore you must be prepared.

Victory goes to the one who is better prepared (more calculations).

[Kouga Gennosuke]

Calculations are important to reach formlesness (a.k.a. "can't touch this")

[Theophilite]

AoW 1:18

And the Lamb asked "So let us give them teachings to learn in places of worship, so they might overcome sin and become worthy of the gift we give them."
Lion: Indeed, for Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made;
before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made;

Lamb: And in this case, calculations are teachings.
Lion: Exactly.

[Duncan]

Originally posted by sonshi
Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made;

Sun Tzu is summing up the section. It's repetition of the beginning and he'll repeat it again in his next line. The temple is the office, the computer, the library, etc... He's telling leaders to do their homework. Don't jump into something thinking that your 'positive mental attitude' will see you through. We all know people with magical thinking. If I want something bad enough it will happen. If you dream you can achieve. Something will come along. Bullshit. This doesn't mean give up or be timid. But understand that achieving a goal requires a large amount of meticulous planning.

[Truthseeker]

Originally posted by Duncan
Sun Tzu is summing up the section. It's repetition of the beginning and he'll repeat it again in his next line. The temple is the office, the computer, the library, etc... He's telling leaders to do their homework. Don't jump into something thinking that your 'positive mental attitude' will see you through. We all know people with magical thinking. If I want something bad enough it will happen. If you dream you can achieve. Something will come along. Bullshit. This doesn't mean give up or be timid. But understand that achieving a goal requires a large amount of meticulous planning.

Goddamn right!!

[Yin]

Originally Posted by sonshi

Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made;

considerations vs considerations

Temple of darkness vs temple of darkness

[Yin]

Originally Posted by Kouga Gennosuke

Calculations are important to reach formlesness (a.k.a. "can't touch this")

Considerations can give you victory but not formlessness

Inscrutable dispositions can give you formlessness

[Yin]

Originally Posted by Bubishi

Like Sun Tzu stated before,

If your enemy attacks you where you are not prepared, you will be defeated.

Therefore you must be prepared.

Victory goes to the one who is better prepared (more calculations).

Yes victory goes to the side whose considerations outweigh the other's considerations

[Yin]

Originally Posted by Realist

(Great, someone got there before me!) Sun Tzu is referring to the five factors. Calculate and compare all of these factors, and every aspect of them, and you shall be victorious. The temple is a place of serenity, solitude and contemplation. Thus, our perception is not eluded and we can think clearly. Sometimes, even in calculating, one loses because they did not calculate every factor or they just didn't calculate every aspect of it. Even doing this, they might still be in peril if they failed to make the necessary comparisons. Calculate, compare - once you've done this, you implement them; you start to make the fundamental preparations.

The five factors are not the only stuff one should consider