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  #16  
Old 05-29-04, 03:09 AM
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Default Empowering the people

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Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, those skilled in warfare use force where the troops in battle are like boulders rolling down a steep mountain. This is force.
A general or any leader must empower and inspire his organization in order to gain momentum. It is this momentum that creates the force what will bring victory.

Again, other translations infer adapting to the present circumstance or situation as the force that will win. At any rate in my view it all strats with a well thought out plan.
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  #17  
Old 12-31-04, 06:46 AM
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Therefore, those skilled in warfare use force where the troops in battle are like boulders rolling down a steep mountain. This is force.

Happy New Year 2005 ...

The skillful general applies force in the form of avalanche. Timing, situation and troops combine to create continued success. Victory begets victory as the momentum builds.

Using circumstance, opportunity and preparation, creating the unstoppable advantage with which to provide momentum, he allows the combined force of all factors to generate Shih (total force) and thus inevitable victory.

Understanding these things, the force unleashed by the general is awsome in dimension, power and effect.
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  #18  
Old 01-26-05, 05:05 PM
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Sun Tzu uses' the word "Shi", though literally translates to the word force, but it is more than merely strength. Early Chinese, took their first lessons from nature, noting the force of gravity and mass on everything from celestrial bodies to water. It was equally obvious to the Chinese that mass and the “gravitational pull” of combined efforts changed the tides of human affairs in the same way that they moved and controlled the planets and rivers. This power of mass and combined effort was labelled shi or “collective force” by the Chinese, and was integrated into the “Book of Changes” as the seventh of the sixty-four factors relating to human affairs.

Shi is not a self-creating, self-acting force in human affairs. It must be organized and channeled in the direction desired to achieve specific goals, and as usual, the first requirement for the successful harnessing of shi is self discipline. The second element in the successful use of “the force” is emptying your mind of extraneous thoughts, opening your mind to the flow of all cosmic forces, and focussing on your goals. Taking advantage of the power of shi also requires knowledge of, and compatibility with, the prevailing social, political and economic forces. To get the most out of “shi” and achieve extraordinary goals one must also have leadership ability and powerful vision that attracts and holds people to you, and be able to maintain this vision in the face of obstacles and setbacks.
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  #19  
Old 09-05-07, 01:36 AM
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Default Re: 05.018 Therefore, those skilled in warfare use force...

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Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, those skilled in warfare use force where the troops in battle are like boulders rolling down a steep mountain. This is force.
When applying armed forces, you sole aim is to overwhelm the enemy by means of superior numbers, a thorough mental and physical preparation, flexible strategies and a strongly maintained morale. Anything else, for that matter, is soon destined to be defeated, as the time will eventually turn against you. Cf., the principle of Blitzkrieg.
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  #20  
Old 11-19-07, 09:57 AM
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Post Maximize Force As Is

When you understand your situation and the means at your disposal, you can array your means so that their natural action benefits you. You don't ask troops to defy their nature any more than you'd ask a bolder to roll uphill. Instead, you take their nature into account and factor that into your plans and have their actions serve your purposes.
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  #21  
Old 02-23-08, 11:58 AM
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Default Re: 05.018 Therefore, those skilled in warfare use force...

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Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, those skilled in warfare use force where the troops in battle are like boulders rolling down a steep mountain. This is force.
Use leverage, do not use brute force, use your natural advantages to weaken and destroy your enemy.

If your use all your advantages including weather, terrain and the like the enemy will not have to stop only you but all of the momentum that builds upon your force.
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  #22  
Old 09-17-08, 07:41 AM
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Default Re: 05.018 Therefore, those skilled in warfare use force...

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Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, those skilled in warfare use force where the troops in battle are like boulders rolling down a steep mountain. This is force.
Force is not based on quantity or strength it is the seizure of a moment of supreme superiority. The moment when your enemy is weak and your forces can overwhelm them.
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  #23  
Old 06-02-09, 03:32 AM
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Default Re: POV

Quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal999
The Wise Stategist understands that opporunities and timing is what makes him a victor. He can create uneven circumstances that looks like coincidences that function in his favor.

At the correct moment, He releases his team of highly trained professionals [Sun Tzu's model of Releasing Trigger] @ the opposition as if he were rolling round stones down the declining side of a steep mountain.
Right place, right time, right people
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  #24  
Old 10-04-10, 09:57 PM
a_ponderer a_ponderer is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, those skilled in warfare use force where the troops in battle are like boulders rolling down a steep mountain. This is force.
If a general has a choice of whether to mostly use his troops or mostly use the environment against the opposing general, he/she could use either or both.
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  #25  
Old 08-29-11, 03:43 PM
zsugiart zsugiart is offline
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The force here does not refer to the boulder rolling down the mountain. An army that is on the onset of victory will inspire all kind of metaphor that is like this.

I think this chapter 'the force' discusses elements and factors that affects the creation of force, like when an arrow is drawn and is still on the bow, or when boulders are still up high and has not yet roll down. The key lesson to take here is leverage. This is why Sun Tzu opens the chapter by discussing manoeuvres, by discussing formations, by discussing flags and signals. These are things that gives an army leverage and magnifies its 'force' (latent energy).

However arrows are better suited for the bow than brush or pen, and round boulders are better suited for rolling down the high mountains than square ones.

Wise general uses men that can appreciate the leverage. In corporate terms these are the standard procedures, the frameworks that gives leverage to the whole army so that when working together their force are magnified so much more than when they are separated individually.

The classic case for this would the the romans conquest of the barbarians. Individually the barbarians have stronger soldier, but the romans have so much more leverage. This leverage is what turns a simple stone into boulders. And in doing so, increases their potential and manifest force.

this actually also shows the dynamic nature of the text. literally the knowledge of the art of war itself is leverage - such as the mention of the use of 'formations' (previous chapter) to gain direct leverage that can turn the enemy's strength into weakness (as we are setting up the circumstance advantageous for us, but not for them). The exploit of timing so that our force against theirs may be like rock against egg. such as attacking when they are unprepared, or when theyr are exhausted, or when supply (read:cashflow) is low.
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  #26  
Old 08-30-11, 03:11 AM
educatorart educatorart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsugiart View Post
The force here does not refer to the boulder rolling down the mountain. An army that is on the onset of victory will inspire all kind of metaphor that is like this.

I think this chapter 'the force' discusses elements and factors that affects the creation of force, like when an arrow is drawn and is still on the bow, or when boulders are still up high and has not yet roll down. The key lesson to take here is leverage. This is why Sun Tzu opens the chapter by discussing manoeuvres, by discussing formations, by discussing flags and signals. These are things that gives an army leverage and magnifies its 'force' (latent energy).

However arrows are better suited for the bow than brush or pen, and round boulders are better suited for rolling down the high mountains than square ones.

Wise general uses men that can appreciate the leverage. In corporate terms these are the standard procedures, the frameworks that gives leverage to the whole army so that when working together their force are magnified so much more than when they are separated individually.

The classic case for this would the the romans conquest of the barbarians. Individually the barbarians have stronger soldier, but the romans have so much more leverage. This leverage is what turns a simple stone into boulders. And in doing so, increases their potential and manifest force.

this actually also shows the dynamic nature of the text. literally the knowledge of the art of war itself is leverage - such as the mention of the use of 'formations' (previous chapter) to gain direct leverage that can turn the enemy's strength into weakness (as we are setting up the circumstance advantageous for us, but not for them). The exploit of timing so that our force against theirs may be like rock against egg. such as attacking when they are unprepared, or when theyr are exhausted, or when supply (read:cashflow) is low.
I like your post zsugiart! What you've said makes a lot of sense to me, in terms of creating the conditions that provide for 'leverage'. I also think 'leverage' is a very important concept in The Art of War. Another key concept, I think, is 'rhythm' (that markb287 has referred to in some of his posts). It seems that applying The Art of War has much to do with the insight and awareness that is gained from tuning into the 'rhythms' of unfolding situations and using this to create 'leverage' to ensure the momentum that both creates and sustains the tactical advantage. Thanks for sharing your insights here zsugiart!
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  #27  
Old 03-19-13, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonshi View Post
Therefore, those skilled in warfare use force where the troops in battle are like boulders rolling down a steep mountain. This is force.
just like water

Entering holes makes them unhindered

Shunning walls makes them uncontrollable

Skillful use of one's expanded arms and legs are just like a tsunami crashing down on Japan
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  #28  
Old 03-19-13, 03:08 AM
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Skillful use of one's expanded arms and legs are just like a tsunami crashing down on Japan
Nan no reigi no nai hito daro!!! If you must use a country's misfortune as an example use your own!!!
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  #29  
Old 03-19-13, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Gakka View Post
Nan no reigi no nai hito daro!!! If you must use a country's misfortune as an example use your own!!!
Exactly! One who is skilled is like fortune.. You can only hope you're not in his way
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  #30  
Old 03-19-13, 03:38 AM
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A true strategist doesn't believe in fortune.. He embodies fortune.. He chooses the lucky and unlucky..
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