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  #76  
Old 05-08-07, 07:38 AM
windchaser windchaser is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by alukyan
I find it interesting here is that Sun Tzu chooses these five. There are many things that he did not list, but I seriously doubt the he meant that through not listing them, the general should not be these. The foremost of these that comes to mind is intelligent. Though some may put it under wisdom, I would argue that it is seperate. Being wise and making sound decisions is not the same as knowing information, your enemy, and military methods. What general could achieve credibility and wisdom were he not intelligent? If he is not intelligent, how can he know what is good for the people to be benevolent? Intelligent encompases the realm of knowledge, the ability to think for ones self, knowing the needs of the people and the army, and knowing the best way to satisfy these needs.
The Chinese word "Zhi" has many meanings: Wisdom, Intelligent, Knowledge, etc..

Perhaps the translator concluded Wisdom as "wisely use of intelligent" which includes knowledge of information. Otherwise, He/she might just translated the text based on the closest English definition of the foreign language.

It's just like the word "Love" in the Holy Bible. The original Greek text has many different word for "Love", depending on the description of the text -- Love for God, spouse, children, parents, brothers (sisters), for the country and neighbours have different words to decribe what we commonly called "Love" in English language.

Also, the translator uses the word, "Credibility" for the second important ingredient of a leader. The Chinese word in the original text is, "Xin" meaning "Trust", "Confidence", "Beliefs" as well as "Credibility".

The term, "Trust" includes "Trust of subordinates" and "Trust which others can have in the leader". One can define such trust as confidence but I just don't want to confuse you guys with the one I'm describing below. Anyway, "Trust which others can have in the leader" has to do a lot with the leader's bearing of conduct.

"Confidence" defines as "Confidence of Self" -- NOT ARROGANCE OR SELF-MADE IMPORTANT! -- as well as "Confidence to accomplish task given".

Cheers!
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  #77  
Old 08-09-07, 01:08 AM
Realist Realist is offline
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General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage, and discipline.
These are the exploits of the skillful General. The General must be wise; the General must be decisive; the General must be able to choose for his army; he musts be the Sage that his men turn to for enlightenment. A General must be trustworthy, he must be respected by his men; Sun Tzu said: "He looks upon his troops as children, and they will advance to the deepest valleys. He looks upon his troops as his own children, and they will die with him.", one must gain the trust of their men, and they will fight against all odds. The General must be benign and selfless; he considers the well-being of his men before himself. The General has courage, so that it might be conveyed to his army; if the General shows his courage in battle, the men will follow him. The men will take his example. The General must show discipline and fair rule; he must gain the trust of his men first, so that they don't come to resent him when moral law requires punishment. If the General is too kind, he can be shamed; too mean, he will be resented; he will be betrayed.

These are the Way of the General.
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  #78  
Old 08-22-07, 02:20 AM
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Default Re: 01.005 General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage...

Quote:
General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage, and discipline.

Wisdom

Is knowing when to decide to do nothing.


Credibility

You cannot collect credibility, but you can earn it.


Benevolence

Being mean is a fastest road to a failure.


Courage

It takes discipline to be courageous.


Discipline

Mind your feelings. They matter.
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  #79  
Old 01-31-08, 01:51 PM
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Default Re: 01.005 General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage...

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Originally posted by sonshi
General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage, and discipline.
This is a point where I disagree with this particular translation; Yes, general covers the type and quality of the leaders, however, at least three of those five traits tie in directly with the last virtue, the Law. I believe the General is the overall strategic and physical ability of the officers, while the law covers the other parts.
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  #80  
Old 02-03-08, 04:02 PM
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General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage, and discipline.


This means ethics, and having positive values.

There is a variation of "Karma" called the law of retribution.

The nature of this law is that the less ethical the person acts, the more his abilities and self-awareness decrease.


This is because how ethics is defined. Ethics is the ability to choose the best solution in any facet of life.

Anytime you make a decision that is the best decision possible, you expose yourself to weakness.

So if you act unethically, you have to spend your enery and awarness trying to fix or cover up that act. While you do that you expose yourself to more weaknesses because you are not able to plan ahead.

So general means to act as ethical as possible.
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  #81  
Old 05-07-08, 07:43 PM
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You must own these qualities to apply the AofW properly. I was told that 2 years ago by my boss and know that now.
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  #82  
Old 05-09-08, 03:28 PM
Theophilite Theophilite is offline
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AoW 1:5

And the Lamb asked the Lion "If I am to go down to them and teach them the true qualities of Heaven then what exactly are the true qualities of Heaven.

And the Lion responded "
General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage, and discipline."

Lamb: "So I must be a light, never break a promise, do many good deeds, face adversity, and show complete self-control by remaining utterly sinless throughout my entire stay on Earth?"
Lion: "Of course, Son, but you are already all of that, it is simply remaining all of that in the midst of constant sin. Then perhaps, sin won't be so constant, and at the very least Man will be completely cleansed of that sin by you."
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  #83  
Old 05-04-09, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: 01.005 General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage...

Quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage, and discipline.
A leader must be worthy of being followed. People may follow a title because they have to in order to keep their own job - but it is the man who leads. A person may hold a position of leadership but if they don't embody the right qualities they will not be trusted or hold the confidence of their men, equals, or superiors. Their leadership will be problematic at best. The man himself must be worthy of his position and of the men under him. Lead by example - demonstrate the qualities that you want to see in those who follow you.
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  #84  
Old 06-20-09, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage, and discipline.
I once saw a movie. You might know it. It is called "Charge of the Light Brigade". Only later I learned it is originally a book. It has been many years I saw that movie, and I have never read the book, so I might not get all the details right. And I wont make it too lenghty. I understood the book was written as a rebellious complaint on how life was for soldiers and officers during the Victorian age.

It starts when a young person joins the Brittish army during the Victorian age. His head is full with knowledge of techniques that might improve the army. He is of wealth and stature and thus can join the officer corps. He quickly find that all the officers are kinda rusty in old thinking and not willing to change. The officers seem more worried with gossip and if they look good in uniform or how to impress the women.
Eventually they go to war. The Generals that are appointed to lead the war-effort and the battles are not real soldier but just political persons of power or noblemen with no interrest in the war other then it will be good for their reputation. Easy to predict they make horrible mistakes, and at the end of the movie, The Light Brigade charges into battle on some stupid fuzzy command ... and they get all blown up by artillery fire. The young fresh officer, full of life, with his fine ideas on how to improve the army ... dies.

I might not recall the movie entirely correct. Point being the Generals were stupid. They only cared about themselves, had no eye for the situation. They certainly did not "lead by example".

What the statement at the top means to say is that the General must be the best example of that which a soldier in his army should try to achieve.

Wisdom:
A determining factor. Wisdom does not come with old age. Intelligence is a big part of it, though not all smart persons are also wise. Wisdom is that which can provide the best possible result in a desicion making process in a chaotic situation. Not all intelligent decision are wise. Being wise requires more social skills and the ability to say "NO". It requires partly an ability to look into the future and know the outcome of intelligent desicions. As such an intelligent "YES" might very well be a wiser "NO".

Credibility:
Very important for any General. A General has to "sell" his ideas and views not only to his officers, but also to his troops. Succes is his trackrecord. The higher his trackrecord the more believable the General is, when he is "selling" his views on a chaotic situation to his officers and troops.

Benevolence:
Be good to his own troops, though not exclusive. It can even mean be good to your enemies or any populus he may encounter in a given situation. Depending on the situation ofcourse. Wisdom has alot to do with this. Intelligence nothing. The result of being benevolant can also be a winning factor. But ofcourse again it must be said it totally depends on the situation.

Courage:
"Lead by example" comes in mind. Those like Gaius Julius Ceasar or Alexander the Great. Known to have been amongst the troops. The courage they showed "being there" can inspire the troops and result in victory. It also has a lasting effect. Not in all situation would a General need to show his courage. But the troops have memory and though perhaps not there always, the courage a leader has shown in the past may be a winning factor in the future.

Discipline:
Much like courage, discipline a General shows might inspire the troops and HIS example be a factor of winning a battle. But also for himself. Discipline might help a General too to overcome personal demons and help him stay in selfcontrol. Personal discipline. Afterall a General is a person too.

A historical person that had most of these factors, I think was Jeanne D'Arc. I am unsure of her wisdom. But she must have had enormous personal discipline, and her courage did most surely impress her countrymen for a while. Her credibility she had to earn the hardway. Though in her case it is hard to tell fiction from thruth, I think. She did lead by example. She wasnt the leading General in any of her campaigns, but the PR did most of the work for her.
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  #85  
Old 10-27-11, 06:41 PM
Arune Arune is offline
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Wisdom: Wisdom is like the art of war. It is timeless. Applying your knowledge of what has been learned with great insight.

Intelligence is part of it, but what kind of intelligence?
Rational,
emotional,
spiritual?

A rational commander may kill enemies as they retreat, but Sun Tzu may not, because he is thinking of the long term, he is thinking spiritually.
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  #86  
Old 01-31-12, 08:23 AM
The Sheepdog The Sheepdog is offline
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"A person who is trained to consider his actions, to undertake them deliberately, is in so far forth disciplined. Add to this ability a power to endure in an intelligently chosen course in the face of distraction, confusion, and difficulty, and you have the essence of discipline." -- John Dewey

Discipline is one of those things that we can acquire in small bites everyday, but it takes a lifetime to ACHIEVE it...
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  #87  
Old 07-30-12, 11:54 AM
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We definitely need more of these Generals (leaders, bosses, etc) in today's world. Everytime I read a military oriented paper, I see nothing but people in power who only care about appearances and CYA. They betray the trust and good faith given to them by the people who expect the highest standards from them.

Thoughts & prayers to the service members(employees) who must deal with these spineless evil snakes; for they will be and are the first casualties.
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  #88  
Old 07-31-12, 12:54 PM
The Sheepdog The Sheepdog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinker96 View Post
...Everytime I read a military oriented paper, I see nothing but people in power who only care about appearances and CYA. They betray the trust and good faith given to them by the people who expect the highest standards from them...
I understand the point of your statement, but I don't totally agree with it. I am assuming that you aren't sincerely meaning "every" paper you read literally shows those types of people you described -- however, I may be wrong in my assumption, and if so, I appologize.

Some of the strongest and most influential leaders I have ever had in my life were those who served with me in the military. With that said, some of the worst leaders I ever experienced were in the military. That's life. Good and bad leaders are everywhere -- I just don't like painting military leaders with such a broad stroke. Some are politicians and some are not. That's the way it will always be.

After all, I don't find that Sun-Tzu was that way and he was a leader and we all read his works.
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  #89  
Old 03-10-13, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonshi View Post
General is wisdom, credibility, benevolence, courage, and discipline.
a must have outer coverings of a man in charge of men
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