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Old 09-01-02, 04:33 PM
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Default 09.003 If you want to do battle with the enemy...

If you want to do battle with the enemy, do not position your forces near the water facing the enemy; take high ground facing the sunny side, and do not position downstream. This is positioning the army near rivers.
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Old 12-01-02, 03:24 AM
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This passage would have little relevance in today's warfare setting. However at the time I believe that it meant that one should take the high ground when possible, and don't let your opponent back you into a place where you cannot cross.

Gonzo
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Old 12-01-02, 09:15 AM
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Default ANOTHER POV

Quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
If you want to do battle with the enemy, do not position your forces near the water facing the enemy; take high ground facing the sunny side, and do not position downstream. This is positioning the army near rivers.
When confronting the opposition in chaotic times (rivers), the Wise Strategist always position his team of professionals in locations that gives him both strategic advantages for offensive and defensive maneuvering.
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Old 04-18-03, 09:10 AM
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Sun Tzu said, "If you want to do battle with the enemy, do not position your forces near the water facing the enemy; take high ground facing the sunny side, and do not position downstream. This is positioning the army near rivers."

The general knows that if the water is at his back he can only move in three directions when the opposition will be able to move in four directions. If his troops are not facing the sunny side of the mountain then the light from the sun will be in their faces and will blind them. If the troops are positioned downstream then the opposition can launch pollution and other hazards at his forces using the flow of the river.
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Old 04-18-03, 12:26 PM
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The idea is to try an engage the enemy so that they literally are fighting an uphill battle.

One who occupies the heights can see further and identify the enemy sooner. Always a smart thing.

A wise General will always seek to use the terrain to his advantage while minimiziong the risk to his troops.

BingFa
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Old 04-22-04, 06:53 AM
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Well it looks like occupying the high ground has the advantage of being able to see your enemy coming and also the possibility of having them fight up hill. The only better combination would have them fighting uphill with their eyes into the sun and their backs to the water.

One can really begin to stack the deck in their favor once they know what they are doing (actually knowing in advance the components that make up an advantage)Essentially a good position is an excellent defence and forces your opponent to be outstanding in order to defeat you. Lets hope they are always having a bad day when they decide to launch an attack.

A person can use this mindset when looking at the pros and con's of different things like different jobs, beliefs or potential conflict situations.

Always stack the deck in your favor. It's been a difficult lession for me to learn.

Pawn12
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Old 06-16-04, 08:47 AM
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Default Clear vision

Quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
If you want to do battle with the enemy, do not position your forces near the water facing the enemy; take high ground facing the sunny side, and do not position downstream. This is positioning the army near rivers.
Make certain that you need to engage the enemy in battle. It could be that his poor positioning will allow you time to leave your opponent behind in the conflict.

It may serve you better, however to do battle. If this is the case, do not return to your once foolish position to do so. Strike with a clear mind and focused eye from a secure place unseen by your opponent.
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Old 01-24-05, 02:03 AM
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You cannot maneuver in the water. River behind your back would constitute a weakness and threat to you. Both in life and fight you would like to have your back secured. First as Sun Tzu said, secure your position. Make yourself invincible. Do not expose yourself.
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Old 02-18-06, 11:33 AM
Bushranger Bushranger is offline
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If you want to do battle with the enemy, do not position your forces near the water facing the enemy; take high ground facing the sunny side, and do not position downstream. This is positioning the army near rivers.

Heights and rivers ...

When the time comes for battle, the Sage General deploys the army with care to maximise its advantage in terms of terrain. Terrain can both constrain and enable, the general will manipulate position to gain advantage for the army, and maximise constraint for the enemy.

Thus, allow the enemy sufficient room in which to deploy sufficient of his force to make the battle decisive, but not enough for him to win. Do not wait downhill/stream of events, when gravity and the flow of time can disadvantage you. Rather, take the initiative/uphill.

Have the opponent face the sun. Let him be blinded by your energy. Turn the lazy river into your most ferocious ally.
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Old 05-13-08, 07:55 AM
Saro Saro is offline
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Post Keeping Out of Natural Impediments

Staying next to the water will severely limit the space in which you have to maneuver. Positioning yourself downstream will put the natural momentum of the water in your opponent's favor.
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Old 01-31-12, 06:01 PM
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"facing the sunny side, and do not position downstream" Again, the theme of asymmetric information with your adversary in the sun and you in the shade is mentioned.The positioning of yourself upstream from your adversary is important. If you command the upstream position, you may rapidly ferry supplies and re-enforcements to your troops via the river if it is deep enough. This is true for both your adversary and yourself. Therefore place yourself in a position where it is possible to bring additional men and material to the show, Further, one can also think of floating a force downstream to attack the adversary from the rear in a two front pincer with the exit of withdrawing out of the pincer movement. Your adversary will have a hard time ferrying troops and supplies to your rear to do this to you since it is against the current. In so many words, go with the flow. Make it easy to bring more to the situation. Your adversary knows which way the river runs. Thus they know that they are at a disadvantage if they are downstream. For this reason alone, they may withdraw. Use the terrain and asymmetric information to your advantage. Your adversary may quit the field by themselves.

It is saying the obvious, but for the most part in China, rivers run in valleys. If you are on the shady side of the valley, you are forcing the adversary to attack you by crossing the river from the sunny side. Not only do you have the advantage of asymmetric information, you are forcing him to divide his troops to attack you while you are in a strong defensive position. Again, this knowledge may cause your adversary to abandon the attack and cede your goal to you because you are in a stronger position.

Last edited by ShrNfr; 01-31-12 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Additional comment concerning the fact that rivers run in valleys.
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Old 03-18-13, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonshi View Post
If you want to do battle with the enemy, do not position your forces near the water facing the enemy; take high ground facing the sunny side, and do not position downstream. This is positioning the army near rivers.
use heaven and earth in such a way that you can create walls from it while turning your enemy's wall into a hole.

this is using nature to screw the enemy
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Old 03-18-13, 07:20 AM
Gakka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yin View Post
use heaven and earth in such a way that you can create walls from it while turning your enemy's wall into a hole.
Can you give us a practical example Yin-chan?
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Old 03-24-13, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gakka View Post
Can you give us a practical example Yin-chan?
you have to go deep in detail

heaven=weather
earth=terrain=geographical features
heaven+earth=nature

you have to use foresight and creativity (foresight and creativity makes the manipulation of nature more potent)

how did napoleon bonaparte lose to russia?

Russia did this perfectly in defeating him
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Old 09-24-13, 05:59 AM
sunttttt sunttttt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonshi View Post
If you want to do battle with the enemy, do not position your forces near the water facing the enemy; take high ground facing the sunny side, and do not position downstream. This is positioning the army near rivers.
Logically,
facing the sunny side tells do not to camp in wet places where you soldiers are easy to be ill. Health is very important; do not position downstream tells that do not camp below your enemy.
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