Re: Useful explanation

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Originally posted by Sarabaite
I've just reached the section describing Xuande's "warrior woman" teenage wife. Not what I expected after 50+ chapters with no real female players!

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How could I have forgotten?

I can't believe that I forgot Diao Chan! That was a great storyline. Come to think of it, Xuande's new mother-in-law shouldn't be forgotten either, or several other mothers. I loved the scene in which it was drawn to Lady Wu's attention that someone wanted to kill Xuande. There was so much finger-pointing to avoid the consequences that I was almost rolling on the floor laughing.

The endnotes in my translation say exactly what you said about why an author may have invented Diao Chan's character, assuming she was an invention. I would think that the author drew from some realistic groundwork. Perhaps there was another case he had heard of in which a marriage was arranged to incite murder. It would great to know!

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Not too long ago, I used to be a bit of a video game fanatic, and the Dynasty Warriors series for ps2 seems to fill in a lot of the information about the Han Dynasty and the Three Kingdoms. Just make sure you look at it from an intellectual point of view.

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'Dynasty Warriors' is no CliffsNotes

If by "fill in" you mean "fabricate," I have some experience with that. After reading about half of the book I got curious and bought a used copy of DW5 for $10. If you hadn't guessed, it presents a very shallow watered-down version of the novel as well as completely making up certain parts. As an example, Dong Zhuo's fate is explained with the following direct quote from Lu Bu: "After the battle Diao Chan asked me to kill Dong Zhuo. So I did." Clearly a far cry from the plotting and intrigue found in the novel. If you decide to try the game, keep in mind that you're missing most of the story.

But enough about the many shortcomings of Dynasty Warriors. Back to the subject of Diao Chan, I think the best way to find out the full story would be to refer to Chronicles of the Three Kingdoms, the official history of the period off of which the novel is based. I've added it to my ever-expanding to-read list for now.

Just browsing Google and Wikipedia online, it seems that Dong Zhuo had a terrible temper and often abused his adopted son. Also, Lu Bu was secretly involved with one of Dong Zhuo's favorite concubines, though her name was never recorded by historians. Having to live with constant abuse (Wikipedia says Dong would throw halberds at him) and constant fear of being caught with the concubine would've created a pretty tense atmosphere. Under those conditions it would only be a matter of time before Lu Bu turned on Dong Zhuo. While it might not be true that the final break was a result of getting caught with a concubine, it does make a good storyline.

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Dynasty Warriors

I have picked up that particular video and glanced at the box, although I haven't watched the gameplay. I did think their conception of Red Hare was pretty cool. It's likely that if they used the markings described in the book, the effect would be lost on many players, but the faceplate does the job. It would be daunting to create a game based on such an intricate storyline. The directors for the Lord of the Rings had to sweat the job of pleasing the fans while still making a movie everyone could enjoy, and that book is comparatively recent, much smaller, and less significant.

My reading of the novel is on hiatus since I am taking an ancient history class, which requires a lot of reading and study. Luckily, we did go over a section on the beginnings of the Yellow River civilization, and we should get to the Han dynasty in a few weeks. I'm looking forward to how that will affect the my future reading when the class is over. The only other writings I have tackled from China are the Tai Kung and a taste of Sun-Tzu. Needless to say, footnotes and endnotes are invaluable!

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http://www.ezgame.com/K3-Eng/home.htm

Magitech is comming out with a game based on "Romance of the 3 Kingdoms". It may be worth checking out for those who love video games and strategy.

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Speaking of games

I'm not much of a gamer, but I recently picked up World of Warcraft. I played EverQuest several years ago for a short stint, but put it down due to time. I hope that this one makes it easier to play for a half an hour at a time or so. I like my diversions as much as anyone, but Holy Cow! Some people end up putting in 25+ hours a week on MMOs. (Yes, this has nothing to do with Three Kingdoms, but I'll bet there are other WOW fans out there who might want to leave advice.)

I've put down my novel recently to keep up with the reading for my History of Ancient Civilizations class. Next week, we're hitting China's Han dynasty and others. We've already had a short intro to the Zhou and to Confuciusism, Taoism, and Legalism. I hope I pick up some good background. I've noticed that TK mentions Taoism quite a bit, but doesn't bring up Buddhism. Is it fair to say that, when it took place, Buddhism had traveled to China, but had not spread widely? It also seems to bring up Taoist monks rather frequently, but makes only a few references to Confucius or Mencius. Does anyone have any comments on the philosophy of the times?

I especially like the dramatics that Kong Ming uses, like the time he dressed as an eleborate Taoist monk (with the white feathers and robes) to make an entrance worth remembering. He seems a dicey character; I'm not sure if he's wiley but honest, or if he'll turn out to be a bit of a rascal. He reminds me of the kind of person you want to appreciate at a distance, because you just never know what he'll pull out of his sleeve. When he stole thousands of arrows in the fog, that had me falling out of my lounge chair with laughter. I hope I never cross a person like that!

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buddhism, being a foreign religion, was just about being introduced into china around the time of three kingdoms. it was pretty unsuccessful up to that point, until it disguised itself as a foreign version of taoist philosophy. that would be a couple of hundred years later.

dominant culture and ideal of the time was confucianism, as it had been since the time of Han Wu Di, the Han emperor who defeated the Huns and drove them westward once and for all. without specifying, all characters in the novel were followers of confucius. Liu Bang was described as the perfect student of confucius and an ideal ruler. while Cao Cao was the exact opposite.

on the other hand, taoism was more of a religion, and existed as an imperfect entity that supplemented people's need to worship a higher entity. taoist monks are traditionally associated with wisdom and/or mystic powers.

hope that answers your question

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Thanks for the insight

Thanks! That does help!

It seems that there's a mixed reaction amongst the characters regarding magical practices. Was it Sun Ce who made a show of killing a mystical traveler who insisted he could bring rain? (a lot of the names and events run together for me, but I'm thinking of the leader who died in part due to a ghost's torments as he was mending from injuries) However, Kongming had a much better reception when he invoked the wind to help win a river battle.

Has anyone read more about the attitudes of this time which influenced people's reception to these practices?

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the people of the past arent so different from ourselves. how many of us believe that soul exists? how many think its nothing but a load of bull?

"romance of three kingdoms" certainly conveys the personal view of the author, those who violate the supernatural are punished, those who endorse it are wise.

btw, that river battle is one of the most famous battles in chinese history, and a brilliant one at that. zhou yu is truly a proud disciple of sun tsu.

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My favourite book of all time.. and ive read ALOT of books, lol. =D
Must get the unabridged version by luo guanzhong, its the only great translation out there.

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Hi everyone,
I know a bit about videogmaes and the three kingdoms, maybe it can interest you all.
Dynasty Warriors (from number 1 to 5) is a funny game where you are a general of the three kingdoms fighting in the historics battles, killing from yourself a thousand of soldiers.
Dynasty tactics (1 and 2) looks like a chess game, it is a stategic game where you move units on a map to perfom tactics in order to destroy the ennemy units. Your aim is of course to conquer China, choosing a kingdom, making alliances, capturing new generals, etc... I'm fan of this game because it is really strategic and because every general of the period can be use or fighted.
Romance of The Three Kingdom (from 1 to 10) is a wonderfull game where you incarnate every general you want (or create one) from his 15 years to his death.
You can do everything you want as a general of the period, you manage your own life (wedding, sworn brothers, choose the kingdom you serve, increasing your fame,...), manage your kingdom (according to the rank you have in the hierarchy, making war, strategy, spying, domestic policy, diplomacy,...).
Your can follow the historics events and take part to it, but you can also try to conquer the country yourself, what is really difficult if your character is not a born king.

The three kingdoms period is closely related to Sun Tsu. The Sun family who rule the south est (Sun Jian, Sun Ce, Sun Quan) is the family of Sun Tsu.
The principles of Sun Tsu are used during every battle by the strategists (Cao Cao, Zhou Yu, Zhuge Liang, Lu Xun, Sima Yi,...). In my book of The art of war there is commentaries written by Cao Cao (Ts'ao Ts'ao), Sun Tsu was the classical war book of the period.
I have another book which name in english might be "The 36 stratagems" (I haven't got it in english but it is fantastic, you have to read it), where each stratagem is illustrated by an historic example, and many are taken from the three kingdoms period (particularly Zhuge Liang strategies).

I hope it has been interesting to you, if you know any good book don't hesitate to tell me.
Please excuse my language, I'm french speaker. If someone own the whole french version of Luo Guanzhong seven books I could be really interested on it.

Bye!

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RTK computer game:
The Chronicles of the Three Kingdoms demos are ready for download from the links below.

English demo
http://www.ezgame.com/K3-Eng/sup.htm

Traditional Chinese demo
http://www.ezgame.com/K3/sup.htm

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Dej2 -- I looked at the screen shots of the game. It seems pretty cool for a strategist!

I'm beginning Chapter 77, and I'm still getting over the shift in the two "younger brothers' " characters. It didn't seem so odd when Zhang Fei mellowed with age and became more even-tempered and moderate, but I'm downright disappointed with Lord Guan's decent into drunken incompetent leadership. He started out as the model of steady nobility, but now seems largely concerned with showing everyone that he's still the same bad-ass that he was in his youth, to the point of neglecting his governing duties. I'll admit, the surgery scene in which he forewent the anasthesia to have the poisoned arrrowhead removed from his arm bone was pretty cool. I'm pretty sure I'm in the hinge of the story in which he's about to incur a heavy loss that will make it impossible for Xuande to gain control of the entire area, which he could have avoided by accepting Sun's marriage alliance proposal or by listening to his advisors.

Excellent drama and character depth! I wish there was a bit more of an explanation for Guan's weakening of his governing abilities, but it does give a chance for his son to emerge as an interesting character as Guan Ping is constantly trying to keep his father from doing something stupid while not stepping on his pride. It seems to foeshadow his rise as an important leader, but so many people die in this book, that you just never know!

By the way, Zhuge, no need to be shy about your English. It's top-notch! I teach English as a second language in middle school, and I'm always surprised when I speak to adult who learned the language years ago but still feel unsteady about their accuracy. It must be an interesting experience to maintain two or more languages to a high level of literacy. I'm reading at about a 2nd or 3rd grade level in Spanish, but my speaking fluency is severely halted. Still, I like letting the kids see a glimpse of the learning process on my side of it. It entertains them, if nothing else!

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Dang it! After the last post, I got half way through ch. 77 only to find the Lord Guan and Guan Ping were captured and beheaded! Dang it!

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