01.002 Therefore, go through it by means of five factors...

Therefore, go through it by means of five factors; compare them by means of calculation, and determine their statuses: One, Way, two, Heaven, three, Ground, four, General, five, Law.

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Study! Study! Study!

Sun Tzu's conception of the necessary knowledge for victory comes near to an ideal, rather than something that can actually be achieved. Like Zen or a Christ-like life, comprehensive knowledge of myself and my enemy is terribly difficult (some would say impossible) to acquire. In war, this makes good intelligence and brutal honesty vital. In business, or anywhere else you would apply Sun Tzu's theories, it carries over.

The fundamental principles of the new "Information Warfare" are all about this first part of The Art of War. If I can acquire any information I need about my enemy, while preventing him from doing the same about me, I win. If I can feed my enemy false information, while ensuring that my own information is accurate, I win. This is the warfare of the future, and it owes its genesis to Sun Tzu, in the very beginning of his text.

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Re: The Way, I think there is significance in the fact that it is listed first.

"The Way," as used in the Art of War primarily, but not exclusively, relates to the leadership ability of the General to get the troops and the populace to be united in mind and spirit. This moral influence is not to be underestimated.

Take, for example, the Taliban. They hardly ruled by benevolence and more accurately ruled by terror. They mistreated women as a routine matter of course and in their first real external challenge to their power base, the Taliban crumbled rather quickly. The quickness of their demise is an indication of the degree to which the Taliban had not mastered The Way. Pure and simple, the Taliban were despots and tyrants and not the military strategists that they may have appeared to be to the uninitiated.

Farseer, interesting perspective. I think it was Aristotle that said, "to thine own self be true." Personally, I have always felt that it is far more difficult to know oneself than it is to know one's enemy.

"New Info Warfare?" Info warfare has been around for thousands of years. Are you referring to cyber warfare?

Farseer, I am not convinced that a person "wins" simply by being able to acquire info on an enemy and to prevent the enemy from learning info about oneself or their forces. Because one can "win" on that front but still lose the larger battle. Moreover, sometimes it is prudent to sacrifice one thing as a way to achieve a more important goal. For example, during WWII Churchill knew in advance that certain towns in England were going to be bombed by the Germans but he knew if he evacuated those towns, and the evacuation was detected by the German High Command, the Germans would deduce that their codes were broken. So Churchill kept silent. Likewise, spreading disinformation and using PSYOPS in and of itself, does not result in victory in the strategic and broadest possible sense.

BingFa

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Why did Sunzi mention these 5 factors only? Because it is every aspect in war, so in life you have to analyse all the factors, in order to get an accurate view of your position.
Although this is the ideal if you could know every aspect of it, but if you can not analyse every aspect at least you can derminate some of the uncertainties.

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But they do Nescio

These five are categories for the calculation. All may be divided in subs depending on the situation. Though the text is very much explainable on its own, I consider the interpretation, through Xperience, of it important too.
I am reading a dutch translation and find that the text, because it was written with an eastern spirit, is sometime difficult to understand as it refers to a none western interpretation on the view of the world.
But do Xtract from it that some aspects of it are open for various interpretation depending on the situation, as it is somewhat more flexible.

If that is not the case, the translator is scr*wing me.

GreetZ,
Sir H. Master

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quote:

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Originally posted by nescio
Why did Sunzi mention these 5 factors only? Because it is every aspect in war, so in life you have to analyse all the factors, in order to get an accurate view of your position.

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Chin, welcome to sonshi.com.

-BingFa

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Why only 5? + The way

Chin,

IMHO:

Why only 5 factors, because you got to keep things simple. Like when comparing offers or quality of a product, you define certain selection criteria.
I think Sun Tzu taught these five factors where enough to have a good view.
As for technology, do you think early strategists didn't take that in account? China and Asia is very rich in variety of cultures and life styles. Think about Mongolian archers on horse, what a military technology for its time. Think about differences in metal-working, stronger shields. And most importantly the breeding of horses. Maybe Sun Tzu brought these in account while he was working on other aspects like ground. For example a general could say: this plain can be crossed in 2 days by my horses and 3 days by the opponents horses. There has to be another reason why this isn't in the five factors.
By the way technology isn't that usefull if there's no energy source, if the pilot/soldier using it isn't trained well or is a coward..., which bring us to "law".

In this paragraph Sun Tzu doesn't speak of numerical strenght of troops either, but he develops it further down in his exposé.

The Way or Tao is everything, how everything, each object, each living and non-living being interact with all the others, so it's logical it comes first.
Here it is also used as "do" like in judo, aikido, bushido the "way of" or the life philosophy. If ruler and people follow a commen way, you can do war.
The general has to have to courage to calculate the amount of support he has from the people and how far this wil stretch when he starts asking sacrifices.


It's an interesting point: the "way" of management and work force have to have enough similarities to make something work. How many management-gurus take that in account?


Yours sincerely


Insoumis

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5

Certain numbers appear frequently in Chinese thought, such as 5. Think 5 elements.

number example
1 Wuji
2 Yin Yang
3 Heaven Man Earth

5 Elements
6 Harmonies

8 Directions
9 Heavens, Dragons

Best Regards,

Rick Matz

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I would think there should be some caution regarding getting too focused on the comparisons here. Much of the elements to be compared are intangible, and are open to very different interpretations by different people.

Intelligence (spies) are key, but how often can you have a reliable view of your opponent's view of these 5 based on your interpretation of another person's interpretation of your opponent? When you have a picture of who your opponent is, how they will act/react, and their organizational structure I think you can compare them in a general sense, but not really in a specific manner.

2500 years ago, there were not a great variety of generals to compete with - and some wars could last years. This allowed them to know each other in a far more detailed manner than is possible for most situations today. There are exceptions, though - Established militaries and companies have personalities, but one-one interactions are often too quick for this kind of analysis.

Summary - While I think the 5 can be important to compare in a general sense, I tend to think that for most people, specific comparisons/calculations are less so.

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7 + or - 2

Another reason for Five factors or five of anything.

Studies have shown that people can keep about 7, plus or minus 2, things in their head at a time.

Best Regards,

Rick Matz

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"Therefore, go through it by means of five factors; compare them by means of calculation, and determine their statuses: One, Way, two, Heaven, three, Ground, four, General, five, Law."- Sun-tzu.

This leads to understanding what is most important in warfare that one should analyze. The Way is what has the people follow the leader so that the leader can guide them to victory. Heaven, more or less, is the weather and time. In war, this is essential to know because it can really destroy the army if one calculates wrong. For example, Napoleon and Hitler made the same mistakes during their fight against Russia through the horrible winter. The Ground is also one of the most important things emphasized by Sun-tzu. Knowing the army and the enemy is not just enough. One must know the ground in order to maneuver and to use the army advantageously. The General is important in that he is the brain and hands of the army. He manipulates and thinks, he leads and fights. The Law is what holds the people together. This way of organization is essential in that the whole army may act as one and will be able to unify accordingly for the goal of winning effectively.

Therefore, these five factors essential in war should be examined and compared in their status.

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This is more difficult to understand. My interperatation is that the CO or general ( boss, gaffer, head honcho ) must themselves take no feelings into account when dealing with a situation. Then they must look at the biggest picture first, the thing that affects everything before they can concentrate on the smaller things. Importance and deadlines cannot harry them unless they are looking at the bigger picture.

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My interpratation seems to be a tad off the wall from you others,

Way
I think that the Way has a much simpler meaning, I think it means the Way to accomplish your goal. A kind of general overview.

Heaven
Heaven is (not to agree too much with Sonshi) the sky and the elements.

Ground
The terrain and the resources at hand.

General
The supreme leader. A comparason is necessary to determine if 'your' general is better than 'theirs'

Law
Law is the toughest one to call in my opinion. I believe that this simply means that if your cause is Just or not. Whether you actions are justified, or simply an excuse to create a little chaos.

Gonzo

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Warfare is not something that we are to enter without preparation. So we are asked to look at certain things, to make estimates concerning our and our opponent situation and compare them. Thus before the execution we should know the strengths and weaknesses of both sides.

For our comfort we have been given the list of the things to look at. The explanation of each of the factors is given below in the next passage. The Way, or the Tao if you prefer is stated at the first place. The problem with it is that it cannot be really described:

quote:

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The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

”Tao Te Ching” by Lao Tzu.

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And there is only blue sky above us.

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