01.009 Ask: Which ruler has the Way, which general...

Ask: Which ruler has the Way, which general has the ability, which has gained Heaven and Ground, which carried out Law and commands, which army is strong, which officers and soldiers are trained, which reward and punish clearly, by means of these, I know victory and defeat!

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Is this given in some sort of order or is this randomly chosen way to introduce elements of victory? Is the most important element ruler having the Way? Some of these elements seems to be somehow connected; are these all manifestation of same phenomenon from different aspects?

with respect,
riku

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Outstanding insights!

Thank you.

BingFa

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"Ask: Which ruler has the Way, which general has the ability, which has gained Heaven and Ground, which carried out Law and commands, which army is strong, which officers and soldiers are trained, which reward and punish clearly, by means of these, I know victory and defeat!"-Sun-tzu.

The general should analyze the different situations. He must ask: Which leader is in accord with his people? Which leader properly knows how to mobilize their army through the heaven and on the ground? Which army followed the law and does their commands properly? Which army is weaker and which army is stronger? Which officers and soldiers were trained properly to carry out their commands, which gives question to which leader trained them? Did the leader and officers give out rewards at the right time and the right situation? Or did he punish his men for something they shouldn't have been punished for? These are the factors in winning and losing that one should clearly notice.

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By going through this kind of analysis, two things happen - 1) The leader can determine his own weaknesses and either correct them or defend them appropriately, and/or 2) the leader can determine where the opponent is weak and make plans accordingly.

"One skilled at battle takes a stand in the ground of no defeat, and so does not lose the enemy's defeat.

Therefore, the victorious military is first victorious, and after that does battle."

If you are going to do this, you must have good information and careful planning.

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I interpret this as a requirement that all seven factors must be in place. If an army or nation lacks even one, it will eventually fail.

As an example, the WWII German War Machine incorporated the last six factors in spades, along with strong national support. However, it was serving a twisted cause and a false Way. Therefore, this once mighty superpower eventually failed.

I think that all powerful nations, organizations and individuals should be mindful of this important principle.

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Sun Wu at the end of the passage states that he can predict who will win or loose the battle, the war. If only people listened to him and applied his teachings then maybe there would be no need for war. Also this is an indication if you should engage yourself in the battle or you should withdraw and improve your position.

And maybe that is what strategy is all about. About constant improvement of your position. So no one will attack you, or at worst you will be prepared for this. This requires constant monitoring of your opponents. To see and know what they are doing and finding the way to be better in all essential points.

So if you look at the organization and wanted to estimate its force you would look at people commitment to it. What is the way they speak about leaders and about the army/organization. Which leaders you like and which one you would like to follow?

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MonteChristo
And there is only blue sky above us.

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a dark general

i will look at this from a modern point of view. I saw yesterday on TV what happened in the Moscow theatre. This was a waste of lifes, and I was moved by it It seems to me that wars are fought now by very different opponents. So "which ruler has the way" might become which side has the better propaganda, and better ways to present its own skewed view of reality. By side I mean communities. Which general has the ability... the general may be now a charismatic figure be it religious or political or military by trade. By gaining heaven and ground I see the mastery of the urban environment. Surely the russian and american generals are very concerned now about actions fought in their home cities. And so are others... In particular, mastery of Ground would mean to know the subways, the waste disposal network, the roads and freeways, and the best buildings for hiding and ambush or knowing the vital centres of the city. which carried law and organization might equate with tactics of disguise infiltration and money traffic over the networks. Which rewards and punishes more clearly might become the creation of an hierarchy based on fanatism and terror. Which army is strong and more disciplined might also mean the recruitment of alienated people with nothing to loose, and willing to obey the most cruel orders.
I fear that a general may become a dark figure in our times, so he must ask himself constantly if his art of warfare does not serve the wrong purpose, know the Way in himself, and refuse to act against it. This is my opinion and I expect criticism. Remeber that it is only a scenario and a crude one at best. The words of Sun Tzu area very clear "ASK"

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surely
some revelation is at hand...

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"Ask: Which ruler has the Way, which general has the ability, which has gained Heaven and Ground, which carried out Law and commands, which army is strong, which officers and soldiers are trained, which reward and punish clearly, by means of these, I know victory and defeat!"

Could this not be interpreted on a different level? Are they not all “inclusive”? Surely, all these statements could be considered metaphors relating to the absolute necessity of knowing ones self, encompassing the spectrum of both weaknesses and strengths. As he later states in several passages under V ss7 Five musical notes, ss8 Five primary colors, ss9 Five cardinal tastes, and ss10 Two methods of attack, these statements relate to the infinite combinations possible when combining basic primary elements. For instance, if you recognize your weaknesses – they can be buttressed or used effectively (as a weapon) in deceiving the enemy into believing just the opposite (as later mentioned in I ss15 “All warfare is based on deception.”). The different queries contained in this passage might also possibly relate to the substantive qualities that (when combined) comprise of (or make up) a single entity, whether it is a nation, province, city. This could also be used in respect to strategies dealing with business and personal relationships. He then completes this sentence with “I know victory and defeat” – as with everything else in life, you can not have one without experiencing some degree of the other.

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I believe that this passage forces one to evaluate your competitor most closely. It also forces one to closely look at your own ways, and realistically evaluate who has the greatest advantage. Whomever has the greatest advantage will have the greatest 'force' and will thus be the most likely to win.

Gonzo

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ANOTHER POV

quote:

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Originally posted by sonshi
[b]Ask: Which ruler has the Way, which general has the ability, which has gained Heaven and Ground, which carried out Law and commands, which army is strong, which officers and soldiers are trained, which reward and punish clearly, by means of these, I know victory and defeat!

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Respectfully Yours,


{* CARDINAL999 *}

"In the Field of Observation, Fortune Favors the Prepared (and the Bold)."

"The stillness in stillness is not the true stillness; only when there is stillness in motion does the universal rhythm manifest." - Old Daoist Text

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agreement

HArd to argue with Sonshi's interpretation. Sunzi's words are very direct: appraise the sides by asking about the five factors. This will guide your decisions.

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Re: agreement

You need a general that knows what he is doing, you need ground that is advantageous, you need officers who know how to handle men, you need a ruler who has the support of the masses. if you have all these things right, you know victory and defeat.

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quote:

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Ask: Which ruler has the Way, which general has the ability, which has gained Heaven and Ground, which carried out Law and commands, which army is strong, which officers and soldiers are trained, which reward and punish clearly, by means of these, I know victory and defeat!

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Further insight into how Sun Tzu uses the previously mentioned attributes to calculate advantages, strengths, and weaknesses. Knowing the enemy and their current status is very important here. Otherwise, there is no way to tell if a general is competent and able, or if he is lacking in one of the traits that Sun Tzu previously ascribed to generals. Without knowing something of the enemy, there is no way to tell if “Law” and commands are carried out. You must also know the position, poise, and condition of both armies to determine which have “gained Heaven and Ground”. This may help you avoid a trap, or set one.

The last statement Sun Tzu makes is “…by means of these, I know victory and defeat!” I think he means that he knows victory and defeat before the battle ever takes place. By looking at the elements and attributes of warfare and leaders, one can mastermind “The Way” to victory.

Toker

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In here Sun Tzu speaks about the stage in which a battle can not be avoided anymore. Physical battle is necessary to restore the harmony. In the earlier interpretations a lot is already said (but for the sake of the challenge I have to say something about it too )

So because the fight cannot be avoided you need to 'translate' the strategy to tactics and practical action in the visible world. This process starts with the ruler. Like I mentioned in earlier comments, in taoistic philosophy the ruler resides in the virtual center of the environment which he creates and rules. He is therefor responsible for maintaining the harmony within this environment. If the ruler is not 'wise' or doesn't know the Tao he will not be able to understand this and thus not be able to create and manipulate the environment in which the general can begin with the process of restoring the harmony (through the way of the unavoidable physical fight, remember it is a matter of life and death!).

On his turn the general has to be able to understand the process of Yin and Yang, he must have gained Heaven and Ground, to 'translate' the strategy to the necessary Laws and commands that he has to lay down.

And ofcourse the army, the organization and the soldiers, must be able to do the necessary thing.

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