01.018 Before doing battle, in the temple...

[sonshi]

Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made;

Sun Tzu emphasis on planning is consistent with his opening statement that warfare deals with the death and survival of the nation.

At the same time, I have long felt that the excerpt about doing calculations in the Temple reveals Sun Tzu's devotion to the importance of training the troops. And the reason I say this is that one of the outcomes of spending time in the Temple making calculations, is to properly discern where one is weak and where one is strong. The purpose being, of course, that a leader must figure out how to assemble, attract, and retain sufficient forces (or employees) in order to thrive in a particular mileu.

And all of this flows from the time set aside in advance of an engagement, to figure out precisely how one should go about deploying certain people, time, money and forces.

In the modern day corporate world it is often referred to as "going on a retreat." But in actuality, the corporate retreat is the successor of Sun Tzu's temple, sans the on demand, soft - porn movies that can be ordered on the Hotel TV set.

In addition, the excerpt about who will lose if they do not make the calculations in advance, is, in my view, an indirect comment on the fact that generals/leaders who do not know enough to properly prepare for engagements, are MORE LIKELY to neglect to address certain issues or otherwise cover mission critical factors in a timely manner.

Again, this excerpt also properly lays the blame on the shoulders of the leaders, where it rightfully belongs.

-BingFa

[markb287]

"Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made."-Sun-tzu.

The main point is not exactly to go to a temple and calculate. The point of this quote is to make many calculations so that one knows what can and cannot happen. This way nothing can get by you. If the general does not do this, then the enemy can always pull that special trick up his sleeve that you didn't know was coming.

[UV]

Originally posted by markb287
The point of this quote is to make many calculations so that one knows what can and cannot happen.

I agree.

I don't mean to repeat your point, but I wish to add some additional wording to it. To me, calculations involve:

1. Numbers
2. Scenarios

Numbers mean rates (e.g. how much food an army needs in a day, what the cost of fuel is per mile covered, etc...), absolutes (e.g. number of campaign days, number of miles to be covered, etc...) and probabilities (e.g. What is the probability of destruction of X% of of the food shipments to the troops? What is the probability of the enemy executing Move D? What is the probability of certain enemy units in certain sectors holding out? etc...)

Scenarios are what-if assessments. For example, what if the Mongolese get into the fight? What if the enemy doesn't surrender by December? What if Army Group G is surrounded?

To me, "calculations" are synonymous with planning. Good planning usually leads to understanding, consensus, and appreciation of the risks and rewards, before action.

I think that calculations are also equivalent to doing "homework". There is a difference between thorough homework and sloppy homework. Not an irrelevant point at the time of the exam, the time of battle.

[markb287]

Strategies and plans are what calculations come from, but calculations are not exactly plans. For example, calculations tells all five factors and compares. Planning tells attacks and defenses, advantages and disadvantages in order to acheive victory.

[UV]

Originally posted by markb287
Strategies and plans are what calculations come from, but calculations are not exactly plans. For example, calculations tells all five factors and compares. Planning tells attacks and defenses, advantages and disadvantages in order to acheive victory.

Agreed.

I distinguish between planning (which is a process of calculations) and plans (which are the result of planning).

Eisenhower once said: "The Plan is nothing. Planning is everything."

[MonteChristo]

Here the distinction between planning and no planning or sufficient one and insufficient one was made. But it was not said how much is enough. There is a trade-off between how detailed plan we can have and how much time we have to spend on preparing it. Also we have to consider that time can also be considered as a resource and it is up to the commander how much of it will be allocated to planning and how much to action.

Though going into the battle without a plan is a suicide. Even the best improvisations are based on solid plan and are either deviations from designed chain of events or variant solutions thought up before.

The good plan has to be:

• Well understood by those who will be responsible for its execution,
• As concise as possible, however providing sufficient detail
• Flexible to allow for changes.

[gonzo]

Evaluate your assets and weaknesses. Analyze your opponents assets and weaknesses. Through proper preperation can one win a battle. Only the rash run blindly into battle not knowing what forces lie underneath.

Gonzo

Originally posted by sonshi
[B]Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made;

It is all about having the discipline and vision to execute the process of "internal organizations, proper planning and calculations" before any external implementation is implemented.

The budding strategist has to ensure his system of intelligence gathering & strategy analysis is executed through.

Much of this "action" phase is psychological.

In the preliminary stage, the will to prepare is more important than the will to win.

[Theo17]

Do much planning before a battle try to think of everything, all the advantages, as well as the disadvantages, the best way to kick things off, and what to do if things go wrong. try to have a plan A, B, and C.

[Sr_Tokes_Alot]

Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made;

This should be a thorough analysis of all elements that you have information about. You should have a plan, and a backup plan, but should also account for as many variables as possible. What if it rains, or snows? What if the enemy has deceived us in some way?

I often think of chess when I read Sun Tzu. Before moving a piece, I always try to account for every move the other player COULD possibly make and know what my response to that move will be. Once the game starts, I also try to develop a strategy of attack and a contingency plan if my attack fails. These calculations involve masking your intentions and luring your opponent into traps (enticing him to take a piece, so that you can take a more valuable piece two or three moves later).

These calculations include attacking the enemy, as well as defending yourself. It does no good to defeat the enemy if you loose your own army in the process. Those that rush to war and make few calculations will be defeated by a calm, logical, and strategic opponent.

This also raises the question of what happens when you are attacked, because you have no time to calculate. A general or leader should be calculating their defenses in times of peace and should always consider the possibility of surprise attack.

Toker

A strategist has to understand that the complex of variables in the visible world are a manisfestation of the dynamic process created by the universal source (Tao). This process is the source of movement; the interaction between the to related energies Yin and Yang. Every circumstance is therefor organicly related to another circumstance, they are in constant interaction with eachother and thus influencing each other every time possible. The total complex of this process is thus never the same and constantly changing. This constant and contineous interaction between 'everything' is 'causing' all action in the visible world.

Because everything is organicly related, just a small manipulation (by a action in the visible world, eighter on mental or physical level) causes a change in the complete environment and is, by definition, the source of huge changes in the interaction between the Yin and Yang in that same environment. Therefor new action is created by action in the visible world (again on mental and physical levels)

So before you enter a combat situation, you have to gain this knowledge, and have total understanding of this process.

[HALBLEU]

In this metaphysical temple of his or her, the Supreme Strategist secures intelligence, assesses strategies on both sides, measure capabilities, compare the differences, calculates movements on both sides before developing the total strategy.

The Supreme Strategist understands the factor of the Tao and realizes the importance between synchonizing his/her grand strategy, his/her enemy's strategy and The Tao. If all is accordance, the Supreme Strategist will be Supreme again.

[Wumbate]

It is hard for me to add something that has not already been said.

"Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made;"

What is says is that you should do the math before you attack - think before you act. You'd be surprised at how many people do not think before they act. It would be better to not attack then to attack and fail. Figure out whether or not you will be successful FIRST and then act on it.

It also shows the importance of intelligence. If you do not have the intelligence (information, not brains), then you will not be able to calculate and will thus be moving blindly. Chapter 13 (spies) goes a little more into depth on some ways to get intelligence. One of the other chapters, I am not sure which, talks about inferring intelligence from such things as the movement of animals and any dust in the air. It is important to first gather the information, then do the calculations, then plot your course of action (or inaction, which could be considered an action), then follow your course of action. If something doesn't go the right way, go back and do the calculations over again. If you don't have time, you better hope you can improvise well.

Sun Tzu said, "Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win, because many calculations were made; before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win, because few calculations were made; "

Using wisdom; Know yourself, know the context, know the situation and know the opposition; Correlate Force and Means and also Correlate Risk vs. Benefit; Build contingencies into your plans; Use adaptable methods to bewilder the opposition, exploit advantages, and to produce favorable outcomes.