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Sonshi Forum Sonshi Forum > Sun Tzu Art of War Explained > Two: Doing Battle > 02.011 Take equipment from home but take provisions...
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sonshi
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02.011 Take equipment from home but take provisions...

Take equipment from home but take provisions from the enemy. Then the army will be sufficient in both equipment and provisions.

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Old Post 09-01-02 09:04 PM
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markb287
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"Take equipment from home but take provisions from the enemy. Then the army will be sufficient in both equipment and provisions."-Sun-tzu.

Food is food, as long as it is not poisonous or anything. But our equipment may be different from the enemy's equipment and therefore can be the one factor between victory and defeat. But taking the enemy's food will be advantageous us so we don't have to waste money.

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Old Post 09-20-02 09:21 PM
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BingFa
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Where is the nearest McDonald's?

Certainly, to the extent that an Army is able to, it makes good sense to shorten the logistics supply train whenever possible. However, depending on the nature of the conflict and the mission, sometimes an Army will want to be more or less aggressive in seeking out "provisions" in hostile territory.

Moreover, in the modern era, one needs to be very careful not to be seduced into slaughtering certain large farm animals that may in fact be carrying diseases, such as Mad Cow disease.

In any event, in many, many instances, the nature of the mission, the terrain and other factors might make it darn near impossible or undesirable to "take provisions" from the enemy.

When you consider the fact that a human being only needs to lose a very small percentage of their bodies' water before they are technically classified as being dehydrated, nearly all armies will only advance when they are nearly assured of ready access to potable water. Thus, in today's world, the development and construction of forward LOG bases is paramount to the success of any large engagement.

Indeed, it is a truth universally acknowledged that an astute observer can readily discern the likely intentions of an adversary by identifying where said potential foe is building their forward LOG bases. Of course, this is related to the axiom that if one wants to ensure the peace they have to be prepared to go to war. The idea being that one is in a far better position if they are able to create and sustain the perception that their force structure is invulnerable to attack. Although as we know, anything that has form can be defeated.

Again, depending on the terrain and environment, in today's large scale battles it is sometimes NOT A GOOD IDEA to have to rely on obtaining provisions from a foreign land. Thus, a wise General will make the necessary plans in advance to ensure that his Armies' needs for material victuals like fuel, food and water are supplied from a SAFE and reliable source.

When men in the field THINK that their source of resupply has been cut-off, it can have an adverse impact on troop morale. Thus, troops still need to be knowledgable about where they can go to seize or obtain the provisions that they might need in the event that they are put in a position where their supply lines are cut-off. This is related to Sun Tzu teaching that one must know the terrain that they are on or plan to go to.

True story.

A client/friend of mine, who is an entrepreneur of about 61 years old, was in the US Special Forces in Vietnam where he ended up serving 3 tours of duty.

Anyway, he would sometimes have to lead a small team of men on what is known as a LRRP (pronounced LURP) which stands for Long Range Recon Patrol. Mostly he just gathered INTEL but sometimes he and his men would have to do snatch and grab OPS. Anyway, my friend sometimes would take a few six packs of Rolling Rock beer with him in his pack. And once he got to his destination where they set up their observation post, he would bury the Rolling Rock beers and then mark the grid coordinates on his map. After the mission was over and his men were safely extracted, he would meet with his CO or some other group of guys and debrief them on the mission.

Invariably, he would have to show the CO his map and the question would often come up "what are these marks here at grid coordinate such-and such?" My friend would just BS his way through it.

Anyway, the next time my friend was out in the jungle on a LRRP, if he was near the buried Rolling Rock beers, and retrieving them would NOT jeopardize his men or the mission, he would go and retrieve the beers under the cover of darkness. Let me tell you, this guy was and is an amazing leader.

Those cool Rolling Rock beers were a HUGE morale booster for his men who were under an immense amount of stress.

Years later, when my friend goes to SF reunions, guys he has not seen in 25-30 years, will come up to him and say, "Hey I remember you, you were the sonofabitch that used to bury the Rolling Rocks in the jungle."

Then, like genuine warriors, they hug and laugh and tell stories like the band of brothers that they are.

Morale of the story: A leader must always look out for the well being of his men.

Always.

-BingFa

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Old Post 09-21-02 03:08 PM
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Cardinal999
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POV

This is the abridged version of the following story.

Another example of this same action was ZGL in need of thousands of arrows for his army & able to get arrows from his opposition by creating a "pseudo" target for the opposition to shoot at. The target did not damage any of the arrows. After the shooting was completed, ZGL was able to supply his/her army with arrows.

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Old Post 10-29-02 11:11 PM
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Cardinal999
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OME MORE POV

My associates and I have known consultants come into their clients office and just live off the client's resources including their secretaries. The only thing they carried was their laptop.

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Old Post 11-15-02 12:24 AM
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gonzo
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Take what you originally need to sustain your forces. But take what you can from your enemy to sustain them for the duration. Why use your supplies when you can use your opponents?

Gonzo

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Old Post 11-16-02 03:39 PM
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MonteChristo
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You should always seek the ways to achieve things at the minimal effort. And remain as much mobile and flexible as you can. For this reason when you operate further away from your base take only necessary equipment.

As deception is the way you should conduct the conflict the surprise is the tool. And you need to be faster than your opponent. That is why you need to be mobile and flexible.

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Old Post 11-18-02 04:49 PM
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HALBLEU
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The Supreme Strategist General (SSG) reminds his or her army to take what they need in hardware implements. Once they arrive at the enemy's ground. the army will immediately live off the enemy's resources while marching toward the "ALPHA" target.

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Old Post 01-05-03 05:53 AM
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SunZulu
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Sun Tzu said, "Take equipment from home but take provisions from the enemy. Then the army will be sufficient in both equipment and provisions."

Know how to forage from the opposition.

Why should you expend your resources when you can expend your opponents.

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Old Post 03-31-03 01:32 AM
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nightwolf
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"Take equipment from home but take provisions from the enemy. Then the army will be sufficient in both equipment and provisions. "

this principle is better defined in the subsequent quote # 15.

The supply (and every other useful stuff) taken from the enemy is double precious.
according to strategem #19: " Steal The Firewood From Under the Pot" too.

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Old Post 05-21-03 03:55 PM
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Dan
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quote:
Take equipment from home


You need equipment that your used to using. If you take it from the enemy you're not used to it and will be less efective fighting. Plus how can an unequipped army win even the first battle.

quote:
but take provisions from the enemy.


Food is the same no matter where you go and can easily be found anywhere (except maybe when a scorched earth policy is applied). You can fight without it at first (as long as it's not too long a time) and food you take is less for your enemy.

quote:
Then the army will be sufficient in both equipment and provisions.


Which is the sum of the logistical side. Making sure your army has sufficient equipment and enough food.

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"Never let the righteous stop you from doing what is moral." SunZulu

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Old Post 06-06-03 03:21 AM
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dej2
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02.011 Take equipment from home but take provisions...

Take equipment from home but take provisions from the enemy. Then the army will be sufficient in both equipment and provisions.
Sawyer’s Translation
“If you obtain your equipment from within the state and rely on seizing provisions from the enemy, then the army’s foodstuffs will be sufficient.”

Here Sun Tzu condones seizing (plundering) supplies from the enemy in supplementing his own army’s supplies.

Sun Pin has another strategy involving taking provisions: “As for the techniques for forcing the enemy to rush about; The first is called seizing provisions. The second is called seizing water. The third called seizing ravines. The sixth is called seizing easy terrain… The ninth is called seizing what he solely values. In general these nine “graspings” are the means by which to force the enemy to hasten about.”

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Old Post 06-18-03 05:10 AM
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pawn11
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Popcorn

A case in point. I work at an office that is near a store that rents movies. The movie store offers free popcorn which I eat while on some of my breaks at work. In this way I feel that I can take provisions while at battle(work). I also take advantage any edge I can get at work like reading all the expensive magazines. A very humble attempt at employing AOW pholosophy regarding provisions.

Sincerely,

pawn11

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Old Post 10-30-03 08:00 PM
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waterbearer
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Take equipment from home but take provisions from the enemy. Then the army will be sufficient in both equipment and provisions.

Frugality! The wise use of resources encumbers the utilization of the resources secured from the adversary (manna). This requires planning, or at the very least a capacity to adapt to the immediate situation so that strategic plans can be suittably modified to account for present realities.

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Old Post 03-31-04 03:31 AM
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Truthseeker
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Feed off the enemy

quote:
Take equipment from home but take provisions from the enemy. Then the army will be sufficient in both equipment and provisions.


My view is that ST is urging us to keep in mind the value gained in adapting useful information we are able secure from our competitors. One is able to gather these provisions through reconnaissance missions wih our enemy's customers, employees or allies.

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"Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down; rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it."

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Old Post 05-16-04 10:02 PM
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