03.018 Therefore, there are five factors of knowing who...

Therefore, there are five factors of knowing who will win: One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious;

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"Therefore, there are five factors of knowing who will win: One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious... "-Sun-tzu.

One must know his own ability, his own strengths and weaknesses, in order to fight. If he doesn't know when and where (and why) there is advantage, then he will not be victorious.

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If one issues the order to fight when one's troops are ill-prepared to fight, this is a serious mistake. And ill-prepared means also out of position, either physically or mentally.

One irony is that if one knows that they can fight, it is far more likely that if they applied the correct strategems in the proper sequences, one might NOT have to fight.

-BingFa

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POV

/// *** Therefore, there are five factors of knowing who will win: One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious; ***///

I agree w/ Bing Fa. Chapter 3 is about "Fighting w/o Fighting".

This framework of five factors can be secured through data gathering, data comparison and objective analysis.

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{* CARDINAL999 *}

"In the Field of Observation, Fortune Favors the Prepared (and the Bold)."

"The stillness in stillness is not the true stillness; only when there is stillness in motion does the universal rhythm manifest." - Old Daoist Text

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You should DEFINATELY know if you can win a fight before you start it. If you are unsure, then you may loose, and loosing is not a good thing.

Gonzo

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Sun Tzu said, "Therefore, there are five factors of knowing who will win: One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious;"

A general using wisdom and empathy can calculate the ability, advantages and disadvantages of his forces and the oppositions. In modern terms this would include the measuring of major variables such as Maneuverability, Fire Power and Initiative. By using proper calculation and comparisons the general should be able to foresee the probable result of her actions.

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I believe that Sun Tzu here is referring to 'timing' which is 'heaven and earth'. And the next few phrases all refer to his basic 5 concepts , the tao , the heaven , the earth, the general and law.

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"Therefore, there are five factors of knowing who will win: One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious; "

It's a basic and fundamental principle : you have to know when it is useful a fight and when it's better avoid a fight (a battle or a war) . the main goal is victory not fighting.

BTW many martial artists don't really understand this key point, they instinctively think about actual fight, forgetting that the "war" begins before a direct confrontation (IMHO).

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Odysseus Nobody

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Recognize the time for the strike. Tempo is everything. Perfection is unattainable. And remember about the nod to the gods, as man is fallible.

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MonteChristo
And there is only blue sky above us.

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quote:

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Therefore, there are five factors of knowing who will win:

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Dan

"Never let morality stop you from doing what is right." Character from the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov

"Never let the righteous stop you from doing what is moral." SunZulu

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About summs it up..

This I understand quite well as it applys to work. If a person does not feel well in terms of your health it is difficult to fight let alone win a battle.

When I am not healthy it is dfficult or impossible to work. Forcing yourself to work under these conditions is not wise but what can a person do when you have to fight when you know the chances of loss are so high.

I find this to be very frustrating being engaged in a battle I am ill equiped to win.

Pawn11

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Therefore, there are five factors of knowing who will win: One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious;

Knowing when to fight and when not to fight seems simple enough. But in reality, as a general in ancient China… you may have other influences that make the decision for you. If charged with protecting a community, and by withdrawing your forces, your decision will sentence them to annihilation. Or maybe the decision of your ruler may order you to engage with the enemy, do you disobey and flee and be sentenced to death, or fight and loose all your men thereby sentencing all to die.

I remember reading about Sun Bin battle for Wey’s capitol. Lord Liang of Wei is attacking with 80,000 troops led by Pang Chuan. King Weiwang of Qi sends General T’ien Chi and Sun Bin with 80,000 men to rescue Wei’s Capitol. To accomplish the rescue Sun Bin takes 2 detachments lead by generals Chi-cheng and Kao-tang to attack a Wei city of Ping-ling, with no possibility of success. The first battle at Ping-ling lost… Tien Chi summoned Sun Bin and inquired: “As planned we unsuccessfully attacked and lost our forces from Chi-cheng and Kao-tang, which fell prey and were defeated. How will affairs now be managed?”
Sun Bin said: “I suggest that your dispatch light chariots to the west hving them race to the suburbs of Liang in order to infuriate them. Divide up our troops and only dispatch a portion to immediately follow them, to show that we are few.”
There upon Tien Chi did it. As expected Pang Chuan abandonedPing-ling and arrived after a forced march at double pace. Without allowing Pang Chuan’s army any rest, Sun Bin attacked and captured him at Kuei-ling.

Even though this is one of Sun Bins success stories, I cant help but feel sorry for Chi-cheng and Kao-tang. If they saw that the odds were not in their favor and decided that this was not the time to fight… would Sun Bin been successful at the battle of Kuei-ling?

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03.018

Therefore, there are five factors of knowing who will win: One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious;

Attending to the art of war insures that one knows when the advantage favors and when it does not. When the advantage favors--and one protects the advantage, acting wisely and with prudence witn respect to the Way--victory is at hand.

Wait for the advantage, strive all the while to achieve it--and recognize it when it comes.

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What honor is there in being still when stillness is expected...what wisdom is there in choosing simply to say that you have chosen? Make way and chose or not, but wisely so.

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Looking for vulnerability

quote:

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Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, there are five factors of knowing who will win: One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious;

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Truthseeker


Suffering is the breaking of the shell that encloses our understanding


"Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down; rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it."

Krishnamurti

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Therefore, there are five factors of knowing who will win: One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious;

How many times have we witnessed a fool blaze forward expecting to win when in reality he is destined to fail. This person is unaware of the situation that he is in, and is probably high on testosterone. Proud of his own machismo.

In evitably he fails. He did not see the plight that he was in. He didn't see that he was destined to fail. A true leader is aware of his situation and does not seek to kid himself.

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