04.012 Therefore, a victorious army first obtains...

Therefore, a victorious army first obtains conditions for victory, then seeks to do battle. A defeated army first seeks to do battle, then obtains conditions for victory.

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The reason a victorious Army first obtains the conditions for victory, is because they are well-led, well-trained and are properly prepared.

For them, victory is a foregone conclusion because their superior plans, strategies, and tactics, when combined with their preparation, give them an overwhelming edge on the battlefield.

-BingFa

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POV

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Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, a victorious army first obtains conditions for victory, then seeks to do battle. A defeated army first seeks to do battle, then obtains conditions for victory.

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{* CARDINAL999 *}

"In the Field of Observation, Fortune Favors the Prepared (and the Bold)."

"The stillness in stillness is not the true stillness; only when there is stillness in motion does the universal rhythm manifest." - Old Daoist Text

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Certain conditions have to be favorable in order to win a battle. If conditions are not, then a leader invites disaster.

Gonzo

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Sun Tzu said, "Therefore, a victorious army first obtains conditions for victory, then seeks to do battle. A defeated army first seeks to do battle, then obtains conditions for victory."

The general creates the conditions of victory by correlating force so that it can be applied appropriately against the opposition. If the general does otherwise he'll be creating the conditions of defeat.

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"Therefore, a victorious army first obtains conditions for victory, then seeks to do battle. A defeated army first seeks to do battle, then obtains conditions for victory."

Once again Sunzi shows us the importance of strategic calculations before deciding to do battle.(cfr. chapter 1).

Ho Shih said: "In warfare, first lay plans which will ensure victory, and then lead your army to battle; if you will not begin with stratagem but rely on brute strength alone, victory will no longer be assured."

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quote:

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Therefore, a victorious army first obtains conditions for victory, then seeks to do battle. A defeated army first seeks to do battle, then obtains conditions for victory.

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Dan

"Never let morality stop you from doing what is right." Character from the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov

"Never let the righteous stop you from doing what is moral." SunZulu

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Conditions of victory???

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Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, a victorious army first obtains conditions for victory, then seeks to do battle. A defeated army first seeks to do battle, then obtains conditions for victory.
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The victorious army first and foremost needs to define what the 'victory' is. Unless you understand what defines the victory, obtaining the conditions for victory will be elusive.

The defeated army will often attack with overwhelming force and assume that this assures victory, but not defining what the 'victory' condition is, finds itself defeated.

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In order for the Supreme Strategist to be the winner, He or she knows operates by seeking the conditions that would lead to their victory. ... He/she would do the proper steps from pre-war assessing, ... deploying whatever it takes to wage the war (preparing and training his army) to developing offensive attack plans.

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HAL BLEU
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"Think Strategically. ... Don't Compete Without It. " A.K. Dixit

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."

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There is always certain sequence the things are supposed to be done. First you prepare yourself. You count your forces and the forces of your opponent. Then you prepare possible scenarios of the future events. You simulate what is going to happen. When you see that you can win, only then you may decide to fight.

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MonteChristo
And there is only blue sky above us.

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I understand the logic of the quote but do not see it's relevance to myself. My situation dictates constanly doing activites of which I do not understand and are difficult to calculate in advance.

For instance who would ever apply to a new job not knowing you have the employer saying yes befor you apply. It's almost a perscription for failure. It's also a perscription for not doing anything about your employment situation.

Maybe Sun Tzu is trying to help people not be too hard on themselves. A realtity check of sorts. Maybe the counsel is to understand the precarious nature of a persons position in relation to the challenges on facesand understand the reality of not being successful
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And what is the role of creativity in the Art of War. if you apply these concepts to creativity who would even attempt it...when the orthodox methods have been proven time in and time out.

It's a strange fit for this type of logic and maybe thats where the force of the logic comes from. Things like attacking with the orthodox and winning with the unorthodox ect.

What the bottom line. Any operation whether it's looking for a job or invadeing a country can be calculated in advance...to a degree. One analysis will not be sufficient over time a constant recalucation and tactical assesmnet of the battle fild is required.

Even a pawn can topple a king

pawn11

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Sawyer: For this reason, the victorious army first realizes the conditions for victory, and then seeks to engage in battle. The vanquished army fights first, and then seeks vicoty.

Preparation, calculation, training, equipment, supplies, wealth, planning (heaven and earth or weather and terrain) are all vital elements that should be reviewed and studied, not to mention those conditions within the enemy. Once all the calculations are made at the ancestral temple…whose forces are stronger, troops better trained, rewards and punishments clearer… The victorious army knows of victory before any troops ever engage in battle. The conquered army does no calculations, does no planning, and tries to finds victory only after the battle has begun.

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04.012

Therefore, a victorious army first obtains conditions for victory, then seeks to do battle. A defeated army first seeks to do battle, then obtains conditions for victory.

The oldest adage in strategy is "do not get the cart before the horse." The art of war is not about fighting but about winning, not about losing less than the adversary but gaining more.

The victor is the author of a composition that balances both strategy and tactics. The defeated have only a strategic purpose but lack the finese to achieve it, being like the knight who charges off to do battle, remembering his sword and his shield but having no shoes for his horse and no other plan than "Attack!"

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Re: 04.012 Therefore, a victorious army first obtains...

quote:

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Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, a victorious army first obtains conditions for victory, then seeks to do battle. A defeated army first seeks to do battle, then obtains conditions for victory.

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Truthseeker


Suffering is the breaking of the shell that encloses our understanding


"Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down; rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it."

Krishnamurti

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Re: 04.012 Therefore, a victorious army first obtains...

quote:

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Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, a victorious army first obtains conditions for victory, then seeks to do battle. A defeated army first seeks to do battle, then obtains conditions for victory.

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