04.015 Measurements are derived from Ground...

Measurements are derived from Ground, quantities are derived from measurement, calculations are derived from quantities, comparisons are derived from calculations, and victories are derived from comparisons.

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Some problems with that

I don't understand this passage. I think the logic is OK, going from measurements to victory. But how do measurements come from the ground? Can annyone give me an example of a situation where you apply this?

What about the other aspects: Tao, General? What about the aspect Law and non-measurable things like discipline? They are also important in victory but can't be measured.


Thanks for your help

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POV ...

Think in terms of benchmarks and numbers. Then you can see the large picture! ...

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Respectfully Yours,


{* CARDINAL999 *}

"In the Field of Observation, Fortune Favors the Prepared (and the Bold)."

"The stillness in stillness is not the true stillness; only when there is stillness in motion does the universal rhythm manifest." - Old Daoist Text

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Re: POV ...

quote:

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Originally posted by CARDINAL999
Think in terms of benchmarks and numbers. Then you can see the large picture! ...

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Thanks for the hint.

"Measuring is knowing" I guess it all comes down to what you measure and how.

You'll notice that Sun-Tzu doesn't talk much about the what and how of measuring. I guess he didn't want to give up all the tools of his trade .

I see a lot of measuring and indicators, ratio's and observation units of... in different areas like business and environment. These numbers and measurements don't help you unless you "know the ground". That is to say you must know what each measurment stands for in the physical world, or in $$.

There's also the how you measure and understanding how a measuring is done.

I'm affraid this mean a strategist should regularly brush up his knowledge on elementary statitics .

Greetings

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MEASUREMENTS!

The wise strategist 1st measures the macro and micro terrains. Then he estimates those measurements. 3rd, he calculates those estimates. 4th, He compares those calculations with his own team. Finally he determine whether the victory can be accomplished.

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Respectfully Yours,


{* CARDINAL999 *}

"In the Field of Observation, Fortune Favors the Prepared (and the Bold)."

"The stillness in stillness is not the true stillness; only when there is stillness in motion does the universal rhythm manifest." - Old Daoist Text

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Reality = Perception + Misperception

As we know, Sun Tzu placed great emphasis on preparing estimates, self-assessment and planning.

Although I may be mistaken, I perceive Sun Tzu's use of the term "ground" to mean not just the physical ground (i.e. terrain) , but rather, the entire environment that one inhabits.

When he wrote "measurements are derived from Ground," I think he was really saying, albeit somewhat cryptically, that a wise general must possess an all-encompassing power of perception and must be able to conceive of the interlocking forces that are ever-present during the period leading up to and during human conflict. The actual terrain is merely one element of the Ground that must be factored into any equation to determine whether one's forces are prepared to do battle.

Once this initial estimate of "Ground" is completed, Sun Tzu suggests that "quantities are derived from measurement, calculations are derived from quantities," and here, Master Wu is speaking about the need to take a realistic and detailed analyses of one's force capability and discern what additional resources one might need prior to engaging the enemy should that become necessary.

While simultaneously assessing and estimating one's own forces/assets/strengths/weaknesses, the wise general is also conducting a "mirror image" assessment of the capabilities and weaknesses of one's potential enemy. And from this, "comparisions are derived from calculations, and victories are derived from comparisions. " And thus, the circle, if you will, is completed.

But is all starts with Ground. A wise General must know not only where his forces and the forces of his potential enemy are located, but far beyond this, is a Higher Ground, that is all-encompassing and includes troop morale; psychological profiles of key commanders on BOTH sides; enemy's likely courses of action; real and potential resources available to BOTH sides; force structure and placement of essential command and control nodes; the impact, if any of the weather and the terrain on any potential operation; deception planning; rear security; and on and on and on.

Sun Tzu is admonishing future generations of warriors that if they intend to go into battle, they must understand the true, complex nature of the interlocking psychological and physical environment (i.e Ground) in which all human events eventually unfold.

War, conflict and competition is incredibly complex because the Human Mind is incredibly complex.

Nevertheless, everything begins with one's perception or misperception of reality.

-BingFa

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Re: perception + misperception

Wise words from Bing Fa, I don't know what I could ad to it. But if any of you guys can, please let me know.


Bye

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I'll interprate this in sections:

Measuerments are derived from ground:
Ground could simply mean the ground that your opponent is located on. Either high ground (easily defendable) ro low ground. And to measure that means that you have to evaluate what kind of posture you should assume.

Quantities are derived from measurements
You must allocate the right quantity of resources to combat your opponent.

Calculations are derived from quantities
You must calculate what type of resources are necessary to achieve victory.

Victories are achieved from comparisions
You need to compare the type and skill of your resources with those of your opponents.

Gonzo

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Greetings,
Detail - The supreme strategist will work through the detail. The saying is "The devil is in the detail". The truth in that saying is profound in that destruction will be found in some small element that is overlooked or simply thought to be unimportant at the time. This section of the Sun Tzu emphasizes the importance of detail. The wise strategist will not move on to more intricate considerations until the more basic "ground" is thouroughly analyzed.

Humbly,

Lonestar

Learning to "take every thought captive".

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Sun Tzu said “Measurements are derived from Ground, quantities are derived from measurement, calculations are derived from quantities, comparisons are derived from calculations, and victories are derived from comparisons.”

Victory (V) - Your force's (Y) Moral, physical and psychological Integrity (I) is maintained whilst the opposition's (O) Integrity is destroyed.

YI-OI= V

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"Measurements are derived from Ground, quantities are derived from measurement, calculations are derived from quantities, comparisons are derived from calculations, and victories are derived from comparisons."

like the cycling development of the five elements of chinese cosmology (wood-->fire-->earth-->metal-->water)
the five factors of warfare are a natural and logical process.

this quote is an explanation of quote # 14 of this chapter.

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Odysseus Nobody

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quote:

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Measurements are derived from Ground,

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Dan

"Never let morality stop you from doing what is right." Character from the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov

"Never let the righteous stop you from doing what is moral." SunZulu

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The Supreme Strategist sets up his or her strategy based on the intellligence gathering team. The "Spying" team dervives the stats relating to the foundation of the enemy. He or she then calculate, compare and execute based on the decision relating to the comparisions.

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HAL BLEU
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"Think Strategically. ... Don't Compete Without It. " A.K. Dixit

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."

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One performs the steps in the order and the results of the previous steps directly influence the next step. You should aim to do things right at the very first time you do them. For this you need to follow the right order and do not jump all over the place because you feel you need to do something.

Sometimes you just have to wait. One of the reasons why Japanese at some point of time became so effective in business was application of Total Quality Management. Number of production faults was much smaller than elsewhere.

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MonteChristo
And there is only blue sky above us.

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Thinking

It amazes me really how much analysis is done befor battles are fought. I was always one of those people who just rushed in and fought my guts out. Small wonder I have had such a consistant run of losses. I'll give this quote a try although i must admit it is pretty challenging to learn this logic and apply it in real time....very challenging.

"Measurements are derived from Ground, quantities are derived from measurement, calculations are derived from quantities, comparisons are derived from calculations, and victories are derived from comparisons. "

Hmm...
I'll use an example from work. I live in a rural area of Canada and jobs can be very tough to come by especially in winter. Competition is tough and working in a call center reminds of a war zone at times. It can feel like a martial law rules.

How to get along in a hostile enviroment..a tough question. Total compliance to their work requirements is my only answer.
In a field condition where your every move can be monitered directly by your supervisors or they can just monitor your calls directly. Everything is timed and counted. There is no real room for movement. A worker just goes in and does their job or they are released from employment. When you need the money and there are few realistic alternatives compliance is the rule of the day.

My opinion is that call centers have mastered the Art of WAr in business. By controling all the variables they guarantee compliance in a terrain that is unhospitable to the worker and beneficial to the employer. Pretty smart eh.

Measurements: In a call center enviroment every thing is monitered, timed and measured.

Quanties: Workers production are assessed reletative to the producions in general and the enviroment.

Calculations: In advance of a shift calculations are run to determine target goal of production for that shift.

Comparisions: Production is assesed relative to taget. Workers are constantly monitered to ensure call are being made and quality is high.

Victory is gained when target of completed calls is reached and then the process begins again on another shift.

pawn11

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