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Sonshi Forum Sonshi Forum > Sun Tzu Art of War Explained > Six: Weakness and Strength > 06.010 Subtle! Subtle! They become formless...
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sonshi
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06.010 Subtle! Subtle! They become formless...

Subtle! Subtle! They become formless. Mysterious! Mysterious! They become soundless. Therefore, they are the masters of the enemy's fate.

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Old Post 09-02-02 03:16 AM
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Cardinal999
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ANOTHER POV

When your "prepared" plan and intent are not known to anyone, it becomes easy to shape your opposition. You are now a mystery to your surroundings. They cannot see you or hear you.

At that moment, you can begin to employ your strategy to master him. Once it is successfully employed, you can be the captain of his/her fate.

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"In the Field of Observation, Fortune Favors the Prepared (and the Bold)."


"The stillness in stillness is not the true stillness; only when there is stillness in motion does the universal rhythm manifest." - Old Daoist Text

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Old Post 10-29-02 04:29 AM
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BingFa
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Is it any wonder that the Chinese people often have this aura in the West as being inscrutable?

Sun Tzu obviously understood that anything that has form can be defeated.

No doubt that the success of the Vietcong tunnel network during the Vietnam war, can be traced back to the teachings of Sun Tzu as reflected in the excerpt above.

-BingFa

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Old Post 11-04-02 05:11 PM
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Cardinal999
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ANOTHER POV

quote:
Originally posted by BingFa
Is it any wonder that the Chinese people often have this aura in the West as being inscrutable?

Sun Tzu obviously understood that anything that has form can be defeated.
-BingFa



It must be the Chinese cooking!

Any one want Shrimp Fried Rice with msg?

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{* CARDINAL999 *}

"In the Field of Observation, Fortune Favors the Prepared (and the Bold)."


"The stillness in stillness is not the true stillness; only when there is stillness in motion does the universal rhythm manifest." - Old Daoist Text

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Old Post 11-26-02 12:47 AM
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gonzo
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When you are quiet about your plans, and there is no discernable pattern to your movements, then you can achieve surprise.

Gonzo

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Old Post 11-26-02 05:57 PM
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SunZulu
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Subtle! Subtle! They become formless. Mysterious! Mysterious! They become soundless. Therefore, they are the masters of the enemy's fate.

The general protects his critical information to a degree that it is impossible for the opposition to know what the general is going to do. For the "invisible" general anything is possible. The phantom army can appear and disappear "anyplace" at "anytime" at will. With this type of force anything can be defended and anything can be attacked.

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Old Post 04-12-03 10:19 PM
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fenriz
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This phrase reminds me of a Chinese proverb I once heard:

"Hide brightness, nourish obscurity!!"

Need I say more?

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Old Post 11-08-03 04:28 PM
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sifu Polderman
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Re: 06.010 Subtle! Subtle! They become formless...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
Subtle! Subtle! They become formless. Mysterious! Mysterious! They become soundless. Therefore, they are the masters of the enemy's fate.


This is ofcourse one of the most beautiful lines in the Bing Fa!

Taking up a 'position' in which you become formless means that the sequence of your positions (the maneuvering of your army), this process of change that, as a whole can be seen as the strategic position (Hsing) you take, forces the opponent to move in accord with your movement.

Doing so, the sequence of your movements and the movements of your opponent in accord with your (forced by yours) will at one point create the strategic advantage (shih) that you can act upon. It is this moment in which you strike your one final devastating attack. (In Sun Tzu's case usually from an ambush)

The genius strategist Zhuge Liang therefore added the variable of 'time', and the 'seizing of the moment' the the key factors of succes.

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Old Post 12-16-03 03:58 PM
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pawn11
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Don't let anyone see your cards

Subtle! Subtle! They become formless. Mysterious! Mysterious! They become soundless. Therefore, they are the masters of the enemy's fate.

Work again.
I find that this type of battle logic favors the stronger person. In applying for work it is impossible to be formless. As applicants we have to show up front our qualificions for work. I feel at a disadvantage when I try to encorporate the logic into this scenario.

One thing I notice though would be to always hide our true intentions. If it is a temp job sound like you would want to do ut as a career and such. Bite your tongue when they tell you the wage and such.

Interviews are all about formlessness hiding your true intentions. The interviewer job is to get as close to my truth as possible and my job is to try to get him/her to believe my hype. Essentially two people trying to lie to each other.

I hiding my own weakness and dispalying the strong. The employer showing their strengths and hiding their weakness. Quite a dance. Each hoping to get the better of the deal.

pawn11

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Old Post 02-09-04 08:32 PM
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markb287
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By attacking where the enemy cannot defend, they have no formation, no common attacks that the enemy can see. By defending where the enemy cannot attack, they move without the enemy knowing, they are swift and always moving, mysterious and unpredictable. The enemy doesn't know what to do.

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Old Post 02-15-04 10:39 PM
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MonteChristo
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I looked at the Merriam-Webster dictionary and searched for ‘formless’. And I like explanation number three:

Having no physical existence. How can you attack somebody if he does not exist. You can attack something if this presents certain regularity and is within your reach. Other than that your strike will meet the vacuum.

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Old Post 03-11-04 04:44 PM
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waterbearer
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06.010

Subtle! Subtle! They become formless. Mysterious! Mysterious! They become soundless. Therefore, they are the masters of the enemy's fate.

The days of rank and file facing off against rank and file, slaughtering one another almost aimlessly, is the antithesis of the instruction given above.

Thus the evolution of guerilla warfare, and its modern metamorphosis into the terrrorist cell: without form and without sound, until the moment of attack.

To withstand an enemy such as one characterized by the subtle and the mysterious traits one much adapt to such traits, then use them as counter-intelligence is used to combat a fifth column. Arrest of terrorists and the collapse of certain cells in Germany, Spain, and Italy are evidence of the use of formless and soundless tactics to combat same.

Wars may continue to be founght on certain battlefields, but victories will more and more be tied to the special ops capacity to infiltrate and implode terrorism cell by cell.

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What honor is there in being still when stillness is expected...what wisdom is there in choosing simply to say that you have chosen? Make way and chose or not, but wisely so.

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Old Post 05-09-04 06:50 PM
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Truthseeker
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Confuse the enemy

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
Subtle! Subtle! They become formless. Mysterious! Mysterious! They become soundless. Therefore, they are the masters of the enemy's fate.


An expert at manipulating his opponent will win the day. Most today behave in a brash manner that says "Hey, look over here, look at me. I am the greatest thing that has ever come along." This, of course, runs contrary to just about everything ST suggests.

A good way to manipulate our opponent into moving to a place of our choosing or doing something we want him to do is by keeping our plans and actions confidential. Never let them see the true picture. Never let them know your true intentions. If the enemy has no idea what frame of mind you are operating from they will not now how to plan against you.

quote:
I make the enemy see my strengths as weaknesses and my weaknesses as strengths while I cause his strengths to become weaknesses and discover where he is not strong....I conceal my tracks so that none can discern them; I keep silence so that none can hear me.

Ho Yen-hsi

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Suffering is the breaking of the shell that encloses our understanding


"Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down; rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it."

Krishnamurti

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Old Post 05-30-04 07:00 PM
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dej2
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Hmmm... I believe that this section reflects the Tao Te Ching's influence on Sun Tzu's work.

—Tao Te Ching 14

We look at it [Tao] and do not see it; Its name is The Invisible. We listen to it and do not hear it; Its name is The Inaudible. We touch it and do not find it; Its name is The Subtle [formless].

This is the Tao, the Way... The Tao is formless the Tao is soundless (inaudible). One who masters the enemy's fate is like the Tao, he is inview of the enemy yet he cannot be seen, he commands his troops on the field yet the enemy cannot hear him. He who knows the Tao of war controls the fate of his enemy.

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Old Post 02-02-05 04:54 AM
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Lonestar
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Re: 06.010 Subtle! Subtle! They become formless...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
Subtle! Subtle! They become formless. Mysterious! Mysterious! They become soundless. Therefore, they are the masters of the enemy's fate.


All too often our insecurities influence us to want to share too much in order to get feedback that feeds our egos. A confident, self-assured individual is able to keep his plans, and yes, his opinions, to himself (I'm not sure what that says about us ).

What power is embedded in this passage ! What could be more powerful than mystery? If my enemy knows nothing, he has nothing from which he can plan or counter.

Humbly,

Lonestar

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Lonestar

Learning to "take every thought captive".

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Old Post 03-22-05 11:08 PM
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