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Sonshi Forum Sonshi Forum > Sun Tzu Art of War Explained > Six: Weakness and Strength > 06.031 Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle...
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sonshi
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06.031 Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle...

Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle is not repetitious, and your formations in response to the enemy are endless.

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Old Post 09-02-02 03:35 AM
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BingFa
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A superior Army is constantly evolving and learning new and better ways to achieve victory. In some instances, the army's advances in waging war may outpace the civilian/political leaders' knowledge of how best to avoid war.

I don't agree 100% with Sun Tzu that there is no role for repitition in war. Sometimes, effective tactics and strategies in one milieu can readily be transferred into a different milieu. It all depends. I think what Sun Tzu was suggesting is that one must be careful so as not to become so predictible lest a foe know how to properly prepare prior to giving battle.

The notion about having endless response to an enemy is a good point. However, with GANTT charts and decision trees, it is possible to do scenario planning in advance and thereby determine the probable responses of an enemy or nation state.

The "formations in response to the enemy are endless" is not something that I agree with entirely. First, if the war is executed properly, there really should not be any "formations" that are readily discernable or perceptible by the enemy. Remaining inscrutable and formless is a key aspect of controlling the enemy's fate. Second, with respect to human behaviour, it is a fact that nearly all human beings act and react in fairly predictable ways. This is why remaining formless is so very important. It keeps the enemy in the dark and guessing about what MIGHT happen.

The only things that are truly endless in warfare are the surprises and the mistakes that occur with unending regularity.

-BingFa

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Old Post 11-22-02 03:32 PM
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Cardinal999
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POV

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle is not repetitious, and your formations in response to the enemy are endless.


I agree with Bing Fa that it is acceptable to utilize some previous deployed strategy.

However, it is important to remember that the previous deployed strategy could be used to [bait] the opposition in the state of lull. Once the opposition is [fished]. It is time to run the [switch] on them.

Example ===> In a football game, it has been said one should never run the same play from the same formation twice in the same series, esp. in the beginning of the game.

Lets say I want to run a sweep to the SS of the line.
Play #1. I run the play with a Spread Formation
A Wingback in motion to SS.
Blocking out whoever is in front of him.

Play #7. Same SS sweep play from an I-formation
With the QA pitching out to the Halfback
QB does a fake roll out to the WS after the
pitchout

Play #9. Same SS sweep play from an Pro Set
Both WR Slot Left, Strong Right (TE on the right side)
WRs block out the Deep Safeties.
With the QB pitching out to the Halfback
QB does a fake roll out to the WS after the
pitchout

Play #16. Same SS sweep play from a I -Formation
Both WR Slot Left, Strong Right (TE on the right side)
WRs block out the Deep Safeties.
With the QB gives it to the Halfback
QB does a fake roll out to the WS after the
pitchout


Play #28. Same SS sweep play from an Pro Set
Both WR Slot Left, Strong Right (TE on the right side)
With the QB faking the ball to the Halfback
And the WRs fake the block out to the Deep Safeties
and running deep.
QB rolls out to the WS and hits the which WR is open

Because I constantly change the various technicalities (ie. , formation, shifts and motions) for the same play.

The opposition does know that I like to run the sweep and I use that play to setup the opposition for a deep pass.

/// ***

The Chinese has a saying about "No Form. NO Shadow" If the opposition do not know what are you going to do, how you are do it and when you are going to do. He/she will be confused.

*** ///

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Old Post 11-26-02 12:13 AM
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gonzo
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Evaluate and adapt. Change conventional tactics into unconventional tactics. Try using equipment in new ways to achieve the impossible.

Gonzo

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Old Post 12-07-02 07:37 PM
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SunZulu
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Sun Tzu said, "Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle is not repetitious, and your formations in response to the enemy are endless."

The general uses wisdom, imagination, and economy to build an army that is adaptable to any circumstance.

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Old Post 04-13-03 05:30 PM
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sifu Polderman
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As irrational as the universe and the human brain create creative thoughts from a network of associations, the position is created in accord with the variables of the time. No moment in time is the same as before because new 'information' and history is added to the network, thus the network af associations creates every time again new and creative situations and results.

So how can strategy be repetitious?

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Old Post 12-16-03 04:12 PM
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pawn11
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By being unprdeictable one can prevent the enemy from making defences based on past battles. It forces them to be at least as creative as us.

pawn11

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Old Post 02-08-04 07:24 PM
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MonteChristo
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Every battle is different. Military and business circumstances change. So changes your enemy. Something what might have worked in the past is not necessarily going to work in the future. So you have to monitor the changes to your opponent and environment and adapt your behavior.

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Old Post 03-16-04 08:26 AM
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Truthseeker
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Stick to the Tao

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle is not repetitious, and your formations in response to the enemy are endless.



If one's tactics remain the same in every engagement, the enemy will eventually learn how to defeat you. You are slowly educating your enemy on your strategy and tactics. He will discover your weaknesses and strengths and attack accordingly.

Adhering to another train of thought about this passage, one should always know how to adjust, improvise and overcome in competition. The course of any conflict or battle is generally always in flux. Circumstances, not only in conflict, but in life as a whole, change, therefore we must change with them. Considering the ideal application of the AoW, one should know the best chance for victory in any conflict instantaneously. As circumstances alter, one should know the appropriate revision to be made in his strategy or tactic for the new setting. Staying in tune with the Tao can assist in directing us to the right play at the right time.

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"Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down; rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it."

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Old Post 06-05-04 01:59 PM
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Bushranger
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Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle is not repetitious, and your formations in response to the enemy are endless.

Large and small ...

Predictability comes about, at least partly, through repetitiveness. Our core strength, strategy, remains inscrutable if it is not predictable. Our lack of repetition, therefore, is a strategic tool. Besides all that, the universe evolves and is never the same, therefore nor should our strategy be so.

The tactical formations we use, though tried and trained, are endless in application within the broad define of our strategy. For each position taken by opponent we counter with one from our own repertoire.

Although each building is unique, we 'clear the building' each time. Which building we will clear next is the mystery.

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Old Post 08-28-05 12:18 AM
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dej2
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quote:
Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle is not repetitious, and your formations in response to the enemy are endless.


You should avoid being predictable. By being repetitive in your behavior you display a pattern, when you enemy see's this pattern your actions will be predictable. Changing your formations, also keeps your enemy guessing, making your confrontations unpredictable.

Note in variation... a pattern can be used against your enemy. ... Display the same formation 2 or 3 times in succession, on the 4th confrontation change your formation. Your enemy will prepare against your "predicable" tactic, on the 4th confrontation, just when he thought he had you figured out, he will be totally caught off guard. (a tactic used by women... just when you thought you had them figured out... they change.)

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Old Post 02-13-06 09:00 PM
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Liara Covert
Member
Lightbulb Perogatives

Consider guerilla warfare tactics and modern strategies used by terrorists. Their mindset works on the element of surprise. We're not supposed to know what will happen next or where. It's the perogative of a terrorist to change his or her mind. This brings into play the whole fear factor and manipulation element.

Strategy for victory in negotiations among opponents becomes either a matter of cooperating to create value, or a matter of competing to claim values (or create imbargos if this is a goal). Here, the discussion arena is the battleground and tactics vary. In the value-creating view, negotiators aim to increase the available resources, to find joint gains or "win-win" solutions, where all parties will benefit. Negotiators must cooperate, and successful negotiators are open, unpredictable and creative. They share information, communicate clearly, maintain a cooperative attitude and focus on developing common interests.

In the value-claiming approach, negotiators aim to claim the largest share of the disputed goods, to steal or prevent trade. To be successful negotiators must engage in hard bargaining. It can be wise to start high, concede slowly, exaggerate the value of concessions, minimize the benefits. You can be relentless in striving to get what you want. You can exercise your perogative.

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Old Post 01-19-07 07:11 AM
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Vesting
Full Member
Re: 06.031 Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle is not repetitious, and your formations in response to the enemy are endless.

Do not fight earlier fought battles again. Once you begin to repeat your own former tactics and strategies, your manner of formation and way of timing will become more and more predictable. Adapt quickly to the new way of doing things the other way.

Don't ever make the fatal mistake to repeat your old strategies against an opponent who has experienced them earlier before. Unless, of course, it is your deliberate aim to apply the seemingly orthodox as... unorthodox.

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Old Post 09-09-07 09:17 PM
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Saro
Full Member
Post Strategy as a Matter of Innovation

Devising effective strategy is a matter of assessing the current situation and tailoring a proper response. Because of this, it's never simply a matter of repeating the same thing you've done before. Even if you do end up repeating a previous move, it must come only after you've determined that it's the most apprproiate response given your new circumstances. Therefore, even if your actions are identical, your reason for doing it will never be exactly the same because no two situations will be exactly the same.

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Old Post 03-02-08 01:03 AM
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Bubishi
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Re: 06.031 Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle is not repetitious, and your formations in response to the enemy are endless.


They say a magician never reveals his secrets.

This is because you are always fooled in the same way that you have always been fooled.

Another rule for magicians is to "never show the same trick twice to the same audience.'

This is to not only protect the secret, but us use variations of the same trick to fool you in many different ways. This is what is ment when it your formations are endless.

When you win, do not reveal the secret, instead combine it with other strategies so it does not become "form" and stagnent.

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Old Post 03-13-08 06:37 PM
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