Sonshi Forum Home | Forum Home | Chat Room   
Profile, private messages, and subscribed threads Register to become a member and be able to post messages Calendar to set up private events and view public events Frequently asked questions about this forum and its features Search for keywords or by user name  
Sonshi Forum Sonshi Forum > Sun Tzu Art of War Explained > Thirteen: Using Spies > 13.009 When all five are used, and no one knows their Way...
  Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Post A Reply
sonshi
Founder
13.009 When all five are used, and no one knows their Way...

When all five are used, and no one knows their Way, it is called the divine organization, and is the ruler's treasure.

__________________
Sign up for the indispensable Sonshi Daily

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 09-02-02 08:51 AM
sonshi is offline Click Here to See the Profile for sonshi Click here to Send sonshi a Private Message Visit sonshi's homepage! Find more posts by sonshi Add sonshi to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Cardinal999
Full Member (S)

/// *** When all five are used, and no one knows their Way, it is called the divine organization, and is the ruler's treasure. ***///

When all five types of intelligence gathering are utilized correctly,
Thw whole is always greater than the sum of the parts. At that moment, it becomes a great value to the strategist and his/her organization

Once the "Side B" knows that "Side A" is securing information from their side without knowing where it is coming from. ...
The opposition become confused. Very rarely does this ever happened. When it does, it can be described as a "divine act".

In business, the strategy developed by the Board of Directors & CEO succeeds because of the quality of intelligence secured by their employed spies.

__________________
Respectfully Yours,


{* CARDINAL999 *}

"In the Field of Observation, Fortune Favors the Prepared (and the Bold)."


"The stillness in stillness is not the true stillness; only when there is stillness in motion does the universal rhythm manifest." - Old Daoist Text

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 10-30-02 02:10 AM
Cardinal999 is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Cardinal999 Click here to Send Cardinal999 a Private Message Find more posts by Cardinal999 Add Cardinal999 to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
gonzo
Full Member (S)

When all are used without your opponent knowing about it, it is a great tribute to your effective leadership and skill.

Gonzo

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-08-02 10:16 PM
gonzo is offline Click Here to See the Profile for gonzo Click here to Send gonzo a Private Message Find more posts by gonzo Add gonzo to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
HALBLEU
Full Member

I agreed with CARDINAL on the effective use of all 5 types of spies. It can be considered as an act of divinity when the enemy do not know that there is a data leak within their organization.

The quality effort of the master spy is the "wild card" that give the ruler a great edge.

During the Shogun days in Japan, traitors within the common population were found by the hidden spies of Shogun.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-21-02 10:05 AM
HALBLEU is offline Click Here to See the Profile for HALBLEU Click here to Send HALBLEU a Private Message Find more posts by HALBLEU Add HALBLEU to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
dudzcom
Member

of course, the greatest asset of any ruler is to know exactly what his enemies (and allies) are up to. much to the credit of the first few passages, sun tzu explains the economic costs of not knowing this. it is of course a tribute to any leader to have a well-oiled espionage machine.

__________________
The ruling king that sees in another his equivalent rules nothing.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 01-29-03 04:16 AM
dudzcom is offline Click Here to See the Profile for dudzcom Find more posts by dudzcom Add dudzcom to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
BingFa
Guest

When all five types of spies are being used by the wise General, the opposing side has an exceedingly difficult time trying to figure out how its plans and intentions are being thwarted.

This is certainly one important reason why with respect to state secrets, compartmentalization is the norm rather than the exception.

BingFa

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 04-14-03 03:58 PM
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
SunZulu
Guest

Sun Tzu said, "When all five are used, and no one knows their Way, it is called the divine organization, and is the ruler's treasure."

The general knows when his intelligence is aggregated and verified from the five sources that his calculations will be accurate and that he will be able to compromise the opposition’s defenses.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 04-26-03 10:51 PM
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Truthseeker
Full Member (S)
Keep methods a secret

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
When all five are used, and no one knows their Way, it is called the divine organization, and is the ruler's treasure.


We need to skillfully implement all of our infromation gathering techniques. They should be employed in tandem, while keeping our enemy ignorant of our methods.

__________________
Truthseeker


Suffering is the breaking of the shell that encloses our understanding


"Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down; rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it."

Krishnamurti

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 07-09-04 01:09 PM
Truthseeker is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Truthseeker Click here to Send Truthseeker a Private Message Find more posts by Truthseeker Add Truthseeker to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
pawn12
Full Member (S)
hmmmn

I am trying to fit this passage into my own designs for finding employment which I enjoy. I am trying to come to an understanding of how I could use spies to help me get my foot ( and the rest of me in the door).

From this passage it would seem that the various types of spies are used to verify each others information.

It would also suggest that their activities go unnoticed by their targets (duh....)

It would also appear to be quite an asset for the person in charge.

So how would these types of spies fit into an intelligence gathering op for employment.

B]Therefore there are five kinds of spies used: Local spies, internal spies, double spies, dead spies, and living spies[/B]

Any suugestions??

Pawn12

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 08-29-04 03:55 PM
pawn12 is offline Click Here to See the Profile for pawn12 Click here to Send pawn12 a Private Message Find more posts by pawn12 Add pawn12 to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hanuman
New Member
in reply...

INVARIABLY, one can use Sun-Tzu and others (like Clausewitz, Machiavelli) to implement strategical concepts into aspects of one's life.

I would suggest (IN THEORY)>( meaning, without suggesting you to actually do it) the following:

It is important to look at the perspective that is our reality and not Sun-Tzu’s anymore. What might have seemed like 5 separate and distinct ‘persons’ can indeed be seen (by us) as ‘forms’, or ‘methods’.

Use the Local spy > I would tend to look at it and say ‘making friends in that community’; Gather information (however unimportant it might seem at first, and regardless of order) such as work times, pay, organizational structure, rumours and gossip, socio-political implications (of working there), and internal dilemmas.

Use the Internal spy > Relating to the above paragraph (either seen as Local or Internal), to ME, this case uses both Local and Internal as the same entity, form.

Use Double spies > This is can be trickier (not that the previous aren’t). Technically, ‘Using the enemy spy against it’. Realistically, afford yourself time in researching the ‘released’ persons, the laid-off, the quitters, and the unhappy of that particular group. This method guarantees whatever one would like it to guarantee, however should prove to be effectively very informational.

Use Dead spies > Obviously, this is subject to numerous interpretations. When discussing the Dead spies, there is need to consider them as Expandable or Useless, their effectiveness comes from misinformation or disinformation (however you see it). Either way, there is no 2 ways about it. Consider the use of a close ally or friend on this one. Go to the place, ask to see the Public Relations (ideal for this operation), or Human Resources (also good) people or any other group you feel is bound to give information (but thereby also receiving info). And bring up such things as: I overheard…this and that…pay is lowered after 4 yrs…there’s controversy or mismanagement in the system…discrimination…fraud…favouritism...costs-cutting…excessive outsourcing…immoral politics…Board reshuffle…AND perhaps the most important after the reshuffle: ‘…heard the company is getting rid of some people (< insert here, anything like the Board, the secretaries, the managers, auditors, contractors, etc.

Use the Living spy > Also related to the above, except a Living spy is one who comes back to you with information, because the Expandable spy is (according to Sun-Tzu) liable to be shot, executed, in which case never came back with info. I suppose ideally, this is inevitably a person who would greatly help you. Look at it this way, once you're in the company, then YOU BECOME the LIVING spy!

Lastly, I will say this: Be wary of the use of the 5 types of spies, AGAINST you. For all you know, the targeted entity is in fact targeting YOU. The important thing to remember, generally, as far as the 5 types, is that however which way you look at things, the enemy is likely to be using the same methods (perhaps not in the same sequence as you, nor even in the same length or relevance or duty). So in effect, disguise is key, coolness kept, authority asserted, rigour and acuity on your side. Prepare to be amazed.

Yours,
Hanuman

Without awareness of the whole, there can be no strategy. Without strategy, there can be only drift.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 10-12-04 10:15 PM
Hanuman is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Hanuman Click here to Send Hanuman a Private Message Find more posts by Hanuman Add Hanuman to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
pawn12
Full Member (S)

Thank you Hanuman,

It will take me awhile to digest what you said and I am appreciatative for your input.

Pawn12

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 10-13-04 03:39 PM
pawn12 is offline Click Here to See the Profile for pawn12 Click here to Send pawn12 a Private Message Find more posts by pawn12 Add pawn12 to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 01:15 AM. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
  Last Thread   Next Thread
Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

Forum Jump:
 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is OFF
 

Home | Forum Home | Chat Room

Site Map | Privacy
Copyright (c) 1999 - 2009 Sonshi.com. All Rights Reserved.