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Sonshi Forum Sonshi Forum > Sun Tzu Art of War Explained > Two: Doing Battle > 02.012 A nation can be impoverished by the army when it...
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pol0311
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A nation can be impoverished by the army when it has to supply the army at great distances. When provisions are transported at a great distances, the citizens will be impoverished.

Stretching your supply lines over great distance creates obvious problems. Like how to you transport? How do keep the convoys secure? Will it get to where it going. this can be tasking on your unit. Thats why being initially supplied and then living of the supplies of the enemy is best. If you must supply yourself, detailed planning, command and control of the resupply is critical.

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Old Post 06-23-04 10:25 PM
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Bushranger
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A nation can be impoverished by the army when it has to supply the army at great distances. When provisions are transported great distances, the citizens will be impoverished.

Take Away ...

An army expends equipment and provisions upon operational activity. The cost of using the army, however, will additionally include the transactional cost of supplying it. The greater the transactional cost, the less efficient the logistical calculus of using the army in operations. Proportional to both the distance in space and to the length and intensity of time spent at that distance, the transactional cost may eat heavily into expenditures that otherwise would be made elsewhere in the nation. Thus may a nation be impoverished.

And thus also lies the significance of not only the logistics of armed conflict and occupation, but also the civilian-military balance in the allocation of resources (especially the 'strategic' ones). To create such fundamentally strategic dilemmas in the mind of the enemy's leadership must be an object of strategic planning. One must also plan to create the means for avoiding the impoverishment of the nation. These must be created and exploited. They must be planned for from the earliest possible moment.

And, if the nation is impoverished, those of whom it is constituted shall suffer. In a democratic state, that means us.

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Old Post 07-24-04 07:10 PM
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maxx
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quote:
A nation can be impoverished by the army when it has to supply the army at great distances. When provisions are transported at a great distances, the citizens will be impoverished.


Of course, the odvious war application of this is that the closer the goods, the less money we need to transport them.

Application to life: The farther away from whats going on the further our spirit is diminshed. That is the easiest way of explaining it,

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Old Post 07-25-04 12:47 AM
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Trinity
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A nation can be impoverished by the army when it has to supply the army at great distances. When provisions are transported at a great distances, the citizens will be impoverished.

Distance puts a strain on military forces and the civilian population. The strain can be in finances, supplies and emotions.

__________________
Victory is yours, if you alter battlefield conditions too quickly for your enemy to observe, orient, decide and act.

John Boyd

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Old Post 12-16-04 10:56 PM
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Kansuke
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A nation can be impoverished by the army when it has to supply the army at great distances. When provisions are transported at a great distances, the citizens will be impoverished.

Constant maintenance of a secure supply route during conflict is costly, both in manpower, and timewise. AND on top of that, it's expensive! It is much better to simply feed off the enemy, than to transport an obscene amount from your homeland whilst maintaining, guarding, overseeing, and patrolling a supply line.

Twenty bushels from home = one bushel from the enemy, no?

__________________
Invincibility is a matter of defense - vulnerability is a matter of attack.

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Old Post 02-16-05 12:36 PM
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FlamingCorndogs
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A nation can be impoverished by the army when it has to supply the army at great distances. When provisions are transported at a great distances, the citizens will be impoverished.

The costs of fueling, guarding, protecting from rot or other deterioration, and pure lift-and-lugging don't just increase over distance. They double, then double again, then double again. The cost of delivered provisions probably needs to be graphed on log paper. Remember the story of the inventor of chess, who asked for two grains of rice for the first square on the board, four for the second square, and so on, until the final price was so high the inventor was beheaded to save the kingdom from economic anhiliation.

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Old Post 03-25-05 11:36 PM
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Saro
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Post It Costs to Spend

When supplies have to be transported from here to a distant place, it's not only the supplies themselves that are being expended but also the cost of moving them. The costs of fuel and labor that are needed to transport supplies have to be factored into the total cost of the supplies used by the army (as compared to what they would cost if they were being consumed at the site of production). The fact that the nation's resources are being diverted to the army already creates a strain. Diverting those resources over a distance increases that strain and, like all costs if one is not careful, can cripple the nation.

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Old Post 07-28-05 07:06 PM
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lozen
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I am not convinced that this applies to modern wars. Sure, transporting supplies to Iraq or Afghanistan may be expensive. However, it's not like we can ship them to somewhere closer and sitll be effective, and I don't believe we can get out of there any quicker than we're trying to...

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Old Post 09-01-05 08:34 AM
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Uzume
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This passage reinforces the last by pointing out the economic consequences back home of NOT cannibalizing the enemy's resources when you can. It's not just the cost of the provisions themselves, as Saro has pointed out, but the costs of transport as well. Keeping in mind, too, that supply trains become more vulnerable to attack or breakdown the longer they are, the more resources have to be expended on convoy security and backup measures. All this constitutes a significant drain on the civilian sector.

While the development of long-range air transport has somewhat ameliorated the problem of supply over large distances--whether for military purposes or for humanitarian aid--it remains a major expense that adds up over time. Thus, even though advanced technologies can serve to soften the blow, the general truth of Master Sun's observation still holds.

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Uzume

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Old Post 08-16-06 08:44 PM
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Realist
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quote:
A nation can be impoverished by the army when it has to supply the army at great distances. When provisions are transported at a great distances, the citizens will be impoverished.

Again, I think this whole chapter is to do with providing for your nation as well as your army, and preserving all reserves - in addition, taking what you can from the opposition without inflicting suffering on them. Do not waste your own resources; if the nation needs to supply the army at great distances, you provide for your army but weaken the nation - thus weakening your over-all resolve. Take from the enemy to provide for your nation - evident in a lot of these passages in this chapter, you might think this animus to the enemy but a lot of it is also to do with intermingling with the enemy; thus the enemy is no longer your enemy. When the citizens have to convey provisions from long distances, they become fatigued. You thus weaken the morale, the resolve, the army and the nation. Take from the enemy; mix with the enemy; you thus gain from the enemy while gaining an ally. Providing more for the army, and the nation.

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Old Post 08-13-07 10:13 PM
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Vesting
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Re: 02.012 A nation can be impoverished by the army when it...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
A nation can be impoverished by the army when it has to supply the army at great distances. When provisions are transported at a great distances, the citizens will be impoverished.


The longer the transportation and communication lines become, the more vulnerable your army will become for counter attacks against those lines. The high costs of maintaining a war at a great distance will eventually weaken the army.

Maintaining the transportation lines is very expensive. Your own citizens will have to pay the tax, which in its turn can wreak the economy. The risk is to deplete the power base, the wealth at which you once though you could depend before the war began.

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Old Post 08-24-07 12:41 PM
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Hazard
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Re: 02.012 A nation can be impoverished by the army when it...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
A nation can be impoverished by the army when it has to supply the army at great distances. When provisions are transported at a great distances, the citizens will be impoverished.


It has become evident in the wars of the last couple decades with unlimited manpower wielded by both sides that economic power and solidarity is the key to war. If a nation can't attack your army they will attack your economy. They will attack your industrial centers and attempt to attain a psychological victory by submitting the people to economic hardship. If you extend your lines of supply you will be draining your much needed economic vigor. This is why some "victories" without taking the whole are not victories at all pushing troops closer to their home base and fresh supplies/reinforcements.

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Old Post 11-25-07 02:37 PM
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Hephaestus
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Re: 02.012 A nation can be impoverished by the army when it...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
A nation can be impoverished by the army when it has to supply the army at great distances. When provisions are transported at a great distances, the citizens will be impoverished.


Not only do you take food and supplies from your country when you provide it yourself, but the food spoils during transport. This stresses the importance of feeding off of the enemy

__________________
The purpose of life is a life of purpose

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Old Post 02-04-08 10:09 PM
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Bubishi
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Re: 02.012 A nation can be impoverished by the army when it...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
A nation can be impoverished by the army when it has to supply the army at great distances. When provisions are transported at a great distances, the citizens will be impoverished.


Long supply lines are very expensive for several reasons.

First, It has to spend money on preparing the supplies.

Second, It has to spend money on transporting the supplies.

Third, It has to spend lots of money and recourses protecting the supply line from enemy attacks.

Since the Goverment only has a certain amount on money, they will exhaust their resources.

When the government loses their resources they will have to use their citizen's resources to keep the military campaign going.

This will provide great harm to the citizens.

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Old Post 02-18-08 09:38 AM
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Duncan
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Re: 02.012 A nation can be impoverished by the army when it...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
A nation can be impoverished by the army when it has to supply the army at great distances. When provisions are transported at a great distances, the citizens will be impoverished.
It's good to see that Sun Tzu continues to include the effect on the nation and people when he speaks of military action. The farther away an army is from its home the more costly it will be to keep it in the field. A general must take into account things such as spoilage, the cost of transportation, and additional manpower requirements. One step further... If a man is in the military not only must he be supplied but he represents a set of hands that are not working his own fields nor contributing to industry in his own nation. In addition money spent on the military is money that will not be available for medicine, education, housing, etc...

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Old Post 07-29-09 02:48 AM
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