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Sonshi Forum Sonshi Forum > Sun Tzu Art of War Explained > Four: Formation > 04.009 In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare...
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saigon
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Sorry if im a little confusing, asthis is my first time actually speaking in here. I believe that the wise generals kind of probe around a little bit, you know a little here, a little there, and sometimes find a numerable amount of weak spots in the defenses. I've read enough war books to know that some of the most successful generals try this strategy. As they find the weak points, they attack at the same time in those defenses, with all the enemy trying to help defend those positions at the same time. Sometimes the general will keep a reserve force, then send them straight down the middle, to go ahead and take somewhat of an easy victory.

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Old Post 03-25-05 12:02 AM
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Kansuke
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 Re: 04.009 In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare gained victory where victory was easily gained. Therefore, the victories from those skilled in warfare are not considered of great wisdom or courage, because their victories have no miscalculations.


Those who are good at militaristic function will see the subtle points of the enemy forces and overcome what is easy to overcome, and avoid what is difficult to overcome.

Moreover, if you are only able to secure victory by enaging in battle, and people die, that is to be called "a hard victory". If you see the formation beforehand, and "break through", metaphorically speaking, then that victory is an easy one.

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Old Post 05-20-05 09:14 AM
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Saro
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 Post Subtle Skill

Because warfare is such a serious matter, those skilled in its execution take as few chances as possible because the cost of failure is too high. They stack the odds as heavily in their favor as they can before the engagement, hopefully enough so that when the time comes failure is nearly impossible. Because the battles they actually fought were so one-sided by the time they actually occurred, their victories did not appear to be the result of skill. They did not appear courageous because one never seems courageous when facing a disadvantaged opponent.

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Old Post 10-06-06 03:31 PM
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Vesting
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 Re: 04.009 In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare gained victory where victory was easily gained.


Do not let the situation happen to become even worse -- gain a lasting victory when it's still easy to do so.

quote:

Therefore, the victories from those skilled in warfare are not considered of great wisdom or courage, because their victories have no miscalculations.


Those bloody battles which have gone passed unnoticed in the historic analects are those ones which have been prevented in the first place.

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Old Post 08-29-07 06:18 PM
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Vesting
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 Re: 04.009 In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare gained victory where victory was easily gained.

The struggle has to be resolved soon, before it becomes even worse.
quote:

Therefore, the victories from those skilled in warfare are not considered of great wisdom or courage, because their victories have no miscalculations.

The greatests human accomplishments during warfare will pass by unnoticed, and they will not be mentioned in the historic analects.

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Old Post 08-29-07 06:29 PM
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Hephaestus
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 Re: 04.009 In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare gained victory where victory was easily gained. Therefore, the victories from those skilled in warfare are not considered of great wisdom or courage, because their victories have no miscalculations.


This is a tad self explanatory. In ancient warfare, the "greats" siezed warfare because it was easy for them to do so.

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Old Post 02-06-08 06:27 AM
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Bubishi
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 Re: 04.009 In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare gained victory where victory was easily gained. Therefore, the victories from those skilled in warfare are not considered of great wisdom or courage, because their victories have no miscalculations.


The ones who win are the ones who look BEYOND the normal nature of things, they percieve in a greater scope, they are able to calculate much more effectively.

In victory there is always more to the story than what is shown by words or praises.

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Old Post 02-23-08 10:12 PM
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Hazard
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 Re: 04.009 In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare...

quote:
Originally posted by sonshi
In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare gained victory where victory was easily gained. Therefore, the victories from those skilled in warfare are not considered of great wisdom or courage, because their victories have no miscalculations.


I think what Sun-Tzu means here is that wisdom and courage are not prerequisites if your planning is correct. Careful planning can overcome the greatest of obstacles even when lacking numbers, supplies, or morale if you capitalize on advantages and disadvantages.

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Old Post 04-05-08 05:57 AM
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no_name
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In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare gained victory where victory was easily gained. Therefore, the victories from those skilled in warfare are not considered of great wisdom or courage, because their victories have no miscalculations.

because victory has been obtained without the underlying conditions comming to light for the ordinary to see, he receives no praise of wisdom

because battles are won without bloodshed or tough action, he receives no praise for courage

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Old Post 07-29-08 07:03 AM
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EKG
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 242.4

242.4

quote:
Originally posted by no_name


because victory has been obtained without the underlying conditions comming to light for the ordinary to see, he receives no praise of wisdom

because battles are won without bloodshed or tough action, he receives no praise for courage


Victory is a process of knowing all elements to fail.

勝利是一個了解所有失敗元素的過程。

The winner is able to review and analyze the loser weaknesses, expose in his management and supply chain capability; the winner is able to trick the losers until he is unable to cope with the posture before the outbreak of agitation, which is the highest philosophy in military strategists before they use troops to engage battle-hardened.

敗者乃是因為勝者察之弱點，分析敗者的管理和供應鏈無法應付善戰者在戰爭還沒有爆發前所鼓動的態勢，這乃是兵家用兵的最高哲理。

‘故其勝不忒，不忒者，其所措必勝，勝已敗者也’。

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Old Post 11-07-09 04:49 AM
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EKG
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 Re: Re: 04.009 In ancient times, those who are skilled in warfare...

242.5

quote:
Originally posted by Hazard
I think what Sun-Tzu means here is that wisdom and courage are not prerequisites if your planning is correct. Careful planning can overcome the greatest of obstacles even when lacking numbers, supplies, or morale if you capitalize on advantages and disadvantages.


When you access to enemy's information is very limited, what you choose to use temptation to rally their forces out, the only way that you can get more and close judgments before war. This is the so-called 'war situation' in Sun Tzu 戰爭態勢.

當你所能掌握敵人的信息相當有限時，你只能選擇利用造勢誘惑敵人把他們的力量都拿出來，唯有如此，你才能夠得到更精確的判斷。這就是所謂戰爭態勢。

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Old Post 11-07-09 05:01 AM
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