01.002 Therefore, go through it by means of five factors...

[JC]

The Tactics of Strategy 101 - One step at a time; measure twice, cut once.

[KaLoS]

Therefore, go through it by means of five factors; compare them by means of calculation, and determine their statuses: One, Way, two, Heaven, three, Ground, four, General, five, Law.

How do we undstand such an important topic? Through five vehicles. These are not "five things to memorize to gain victory", or even five things at all. These are perspectives, different angles at which the general must view reality.

He must look from the perspective of a truth-seeker who has sought truth and wisdom throught his life, about the entire universe.

He must look from the perspective of the sky so that he can see all of the possibilities of reality.

He must look from the perspective of the earth to see the probabilities of what he must deal with.

He must look from the perspective of a man called to lead men. He must see deeply inside himself, only then will he see inside those he leads or opposes.

He must look from the perspective of history, as law embodies all of the lessons learned by his ancestors.

Sun Tzu said, "Therefore, go through it by means of five factors; compare them by means of calculation, and determine their statuses: One, Way, two, Heaven, three, Ground, four, General, five, Law."

Gather then compare, analyze and extrapolate information. Prioritize the information and then put it into the context of the circumstances of the situation.

The Way is the paradigm and the flow. Its factors can be obvious and subtle almost indescribable but nothing is invisible.

Heaven signifies the uncontrollable variables such as weather, temperature and luminosity.

Ground signifies things that are measurable such as space, time, distance, height, depth and width.

The General signifies a leaders ability.

Law is the faith that people have in their general.

[UV]

Originally posted by SunZulu
The Way is the paradigm and the flow. Its factors can be obvious and subtle almost indescribable but nothing is invisible.

"The Way" is the factor containing the most ambiguity within it. Is the Jewish Bible the Way? Is the Christian Bible the Way? Is the Koran the Way? Is Taoism the Way? Is caring for the environment the Way? Is Greed the Way? Is Win-Win the Way? Is Win-Lose the Way?

Some of the above Ways, while masquerading as the Way, contain fraud, lies and fabrications. Those who believe in them as the Way, go forth and lead people unto destruction.

[The Sage]

no matter how you look at it the importance cant really be judged. they are all important and a lot like a tripod cant stand missing a leg so too can this idea not stand without one of the ideals. so you must view all things at once

Originally posted by sonshi
Therefore, go through it by means of five factors; compare them by means of calculation, and determine their statuses: One, Way, two, Heaven, three, Ground, four, General, five, Law.

Well this is how I see it:

Way: What motivates the men to fight. Men with a purpose fight harder then those without. If all the men are striving for the same thing how could they lose. I think later in the book it is said, "One whose upper ranks and lower ranks have the same desires will be victorious."

Heaven: "Heaven is yin and yang, cold and hot, the order of the seasons. Going with it, going against it this is military victory." My interpretation is who is fated to win? This cant be foreshadowed but nothing really can.

Ground: Where the battle will take place eg. who will have the high ground.

General: Which general can adapt during battle ensuring victory?

Law: Who knows the price of both victory and defeat?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

"Therefore, go through it by means of five factors; compare them by means of calculation, and determine their statuses: One, Way, two, Heaven, three, Ground, four, General, five, Law."

five is a sacred number in chinese culture, the number of the five elements (Wood,Fire,Earth,Metal,Water) of the universe.

Warfare is a Way and it must be practised according with the universe and its rules.

[HALBLEU]

There are five types of factors that you must always be aware of.
"The Way" is the mission vision of the strategic leader.
"The Heaven" is whatever arena that you are focused on.
"Ground" is the particular niche within that arena that you are focus on.

"The General" is what makes the organization go. Leadership is important from the start of the organization. He or she establishes the leadership by example. His character must be a flawless model of dignity and honesty..

"Law" is the rules established by the leader for the purpose of efficiency and effectiveness.

Five factors:

• Way
  Heaven
  Ground
  General
  Law

NowadayZ we would define the factors differently. Though these can still be used today. These 5 factors where choosen because these best described the natural environment of these times.

NowadayZ we would put more emphasis on some and less on others. Perhaps devide some up into other factors for more precise measurements needed for calculation.

But that is us and our current techology. Simpler times need simpler calculations. Calculations that use factors that are drawn directly from ones direct perspective view. There is a limit into what the human-brain can calculate. The human brain can see relationships between subjects / objects (meant relative, in a matter of speaking) upto 7 or 8 subjects / objects at the same point in time.

As it is a human brain that is doing the calculations and beeing limited to ones own perspective view, the leader who is doing the war-calculations should not be bothered by to much information at the same time. An overall assement of the situation will do fine in simple times when information (compared to todayZ standards) is limited.

Slicing up the total environmental picture in understandable sections, ready to go to put into a calculation of a possible outcome.

[dej2]

"Therefore, structure it according to the following five factors, evaluate it comparatively through estimations, and seek out its true nature. The frist is termed the Tao, the second Heaven, the third Earth, the fourth generals, and the fifth the laws (for military organiziation and discipline).

This section Sun Tzu summarizes the next five points in this chapter. Just taking this verse by itself does not really make a lot of sense to me. But Sun Tzu does state that the five factors must be evaluated and compared throughly for the purpose of this estimation.

The first factor "Tao" the Way, should in itself encompass everything, but how does one compare (the metaphysical) "Tao" with "Tao". Of course one does not. He later defines his use of the word "Tao" for this situation. The "Tao" causes the people to be fully in accord with the ruler." This is the "Tao" of government, it should be understood to encompass the legal and administrative measures and polices for the people (including finance, food, population, resouces...). Heaven refers to nature, such as weather conditions and the seasons, daytime/nighttime... Earth is the physical terrain.. be it, light, contentious, traversable, focal, heavy, entrapping, encircled or fatal. Generals your commanders, they should posess posive traits, they should be loyal to you and their men loyal to them. Laws of the army which is stricter and more disciplined than laws of the people and should encompas organization, regulations, managment, logistics...

All these factors should be studied in the utmost of detail. All aspects should be taken into account and compared, for virtually one elememt may support one or more aspects of another. All must be taken into account before waging war.

[Dan]

Therefore, go through it by means of five factors; compare them by means of calculation, and determine their statuses: One, Way, two, Heaven, three, Ground, four, General, five, Law.

This illustrates the factors that Sun-Tzu thinks to be the most important when determining who shall be victorious in war. The analyzation of these factors is left for the next few verses and as such I will leave analyzation of these factors for the proceeding verses. This is a summary of the next few verses and a lead into them, it is a literary device used to help make rememberance of these important factors easier.

[insoumis]

Therefore, go through it by means of five factors; compare them by means of calculation, and determine their statuses: One, Way, two, Heaven, three, Ground, four, General, five, Law.

My interpretation.

Compare them by means of calculations: Don't guess! Calculate using measurable facts. Be sure you're facts are objective, verified and can be used to compare both sides.

SZ wrote his book for generals of his age waging military war. His lessons however are like algebra, once you solve the equation x and y can be anything, dollars, kilo's, distances... the solution remains.
So the five factors according to me:

Way: Support and common purpose. Support of hierarchy, of te "masses", of those with influence. Waging a war in accord with the common purpose or core buisiness of your organisation.

Heaven: Everything that's mostly influenced by the passing of time. This can be seasons or day and night in military warfare. It can be fashion, the festive calendar, occurence of trade fairs or emergence of new technology in business.

Ground: Everything mostly dependent on space. Space doesn't have to be a physical space. It can be advertisment space, "the market", availibility of technology, bandwith... .

General: quality of the leader = self-knowledge, intelligence, courage.

Law: communication (who reports to who), structure of command, punischments (disciplinary measures), rewards, bonuses, logistics.

[Kutulu]

"Therefore, structure it according to the following five factors, evaluate it comparatively through estimations, and seek out its true nature."

Before Sun Tzu lists these five factors, he explains what they are for. These are the very foundations of plans. When Sun Tzu says "it," he can only be referring to warfare, therefore, he is telling us that these five are the means by which we may evaluate warfare, and even "seek out its true nature." All other factors are merely elements of these five, and all estimations serve to define these exactly.

"The first is termed the Tao, the second Heaven, the third Earth, the fourth generals, and the fifth the laws for military organization and discipline."

I believe that these five are still the same today, although their embodiments may be more difficult to recognize. Here is my own brief overview, for I will explain them in greater detail in their own respective places:

The Tao: The first of five, the Tao must be seen as more expansive than the circumstances surrounding a battle. It is everything which effects the men of both armies, be it political, religious, or other influences. The Tao can even be interpreted to encompass the laws of nature and, on a more "military-scientific" scale, the equivalent of Rules of Engagement and Standard Operating Procedures.

Heaven: This one's simple. Heaven is the weather and the seasons. What is not simple is predicting the movements of Heaven and how they will favor one thing or another.

Earth: Earth is terrain. Much of the Art of War is devoted to discerning and playing out the advantages of Earth.

Generals: The generals determine how both armies will be conducted. This is the "chess game" element.

Laws: Laws are very important, for they determine whether or not the army will do as is commanded by their general.

All factors of warfare can be separated into these five.

[Arast]

The way - is an English translation of the Tao or the Dao - Taoism, although rooted in China affected all Eastern thought - and to understand your enemy it seems you must also understand his energy source - we know most Martial Arts are based on using your enemy's energy and not blocking an advance but using an enemy's advance to build your own energy.

Earlier in this thread someone brought up the Taliban as proof we knew our enemy - they, as the Iraqi now, may have used this principle to 'not' dam the stream till the stream drys and then dam the water within a contained area where the enemy has invested its energy and will fight till it dries up.

Taoism, as in most Eastern thought, including native Japanese religion/philosophy, is based in nature and is explained using nature. When the CIA or marketing experts examine a stratergy, looking to know the enemy few use the workings of nature but rather turn to logic and critical mass - the Theory of Choas or Fractal Geometry is closer to nature and probably closer to the reality of how to examine and become attuned to the Way.

That says to me where these books were written during a time when the war was waged with people that did not culturally think much different from each other - today we must know the cultural thinking and problem solving used by our enemies, or our customers, or any power we are trying to change to our point of view, or who we want to buy what we have to sell.

Not just how will war benefit ourselves but, how will war be seen as a benefit to our enemy and what resistance, if any at first, will our enemy use. If we push a hot button how could the enemy respond to avoid being swept into our power...

Example we all use - a shop keeper asks if he can help - we lie, saying, 'we are just looking' so as not to be within his power since we feel vulnerable that he may change our point of view as to what we buy and how much we pay...

[Acaila]

Therefore, go through it by means of five factors; compare them by means of calculation, and determine their statuses : One, Way, two, Heaven, three, Ground, four, General, five, Law.

Why does everybody keep talking about comparing the five factors? I believe that detemining their statusses is very important. I can't really explain in English (I'm a Belgian) but I'll try anyway.

First you calculate and compare. Let's say Ground is most important here, what would happen if it has a status, like being deadly ground or surrounded? I admit that these come later on, but it does not matter much if the ground is barren or green when you are on surrounded ground. If this is the case (Ground most important, status: very bad) it will seriously affect the calculations, wouldn't it?

This is the first time I ever read Sun Tzu, but I play loads of strategy games and I believe I understood a little bit of it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.